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Hiliadan

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Jun 17, 2018
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Reward sets are what define the type (unit, item, skills, gold, mana, CP, RP) and quantity of rewards you get from completing a Quest or exploring a structure. They include multiplier for each type of reward, which set the quantity of each that you get, and excess mode multiplier to transform the reward value that was not given as primary rewards, as gold, mana or RP. This is briefly explained here: https://age-of-wonders-3.fandom.com/wiki/Items#Item_rewards

Many reward sets could be improved.

Let's start with Fey Quests.

Currently they pick units among Buttercup, Toadstool and Nightshade Fairies. One idea woud be to add Unicorns and Wisps. For balance reasons, Nymphs would not be added as they can provide mind-control.

Opinions?
 
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gladis

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Giants Always give T3 at least. So no need to give more weak Units from Fey-Quests. I guess this is your Intention? Ofc Unicorns can be handy because of Strong Will and quick on Strategic Map. Maybe you could set up a table which Shows the different rewards for each Dwelling. Then we could compare them :p
 

Hiliadan

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Jun 17, 2018
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Giants Always give T3 at least. So no need to give more weak Units from Fey-Quests.
That's not really an argument. It's like saying all racial Outposts should give a racial T3 for a Very Easy Quest because the lowest reward of Giants are a T3.
Giants give a T3 because that's the lowest they can give. But we could make it so that Giants never give a Quest easier than Medium (so no Very Easy and no Easy). Then it would be in line with other Quests. (and it might already be the case, I didn't check, it's extremely time-consuming)
 

Jolly Joker

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For balance reasons, Nymphs would not be added as they can provide mind-control.
Opinions?
Well, I thought you "fixed" mind-control (satisfactorily for you guys). Nymph is, in my opinion, a really crappy unit. Her mc abilities are touch and she is very slow. Her defense of 7 means she will die easily. She's dedicated to good as well, meaning her moral will be crap, she is T2 (for 8 gold upkeep), and she's slow on the map.

If you have a quest that will give you a T2, Nymph, Unicorn or Toadstool, Nymph will make you "work" the most, because the unit comes with problems (and if every mc unit would be equally flawed, mc wouldn't have been a problem in the first place).

I also think, that with "unit-stealing" being limited to Rogue, Theo, AD and Necro a neutral stealer (for everyone to get their hands on) might not be the worst idea ever to "even the odds" in that regard.
 

Hiliadan

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Jun 17, 2018
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Part of the mind-control fixing is to make it less accessible (e.g. by removing all the items giving MC abilities), so preventing access to Nymphs is part of that.

So not much support to add Unicorns and Wisps as Quest rewards for Feys so far. (and no the idea is not to weaken units from Feys gladis)


Launching discussion on another reward set now...

Ziggurat
https://age-of-wonders-3.fandom.com/wiki/Template:Ziggurat
Ziggurat can yields one or two items (Legendary or Mythical in the balance mod, and the discussion assumes the balance mod is used) and the excess reward is transformed into gold.

There are two issues.
1/ There are two unhamornized Ziggurat reward sets. One is in the /Title folder, one in the Structure_DLC2.rpk, called "Ziggurat default DUPLICATE" and it's not properly set. The excess gold reward multiplier is at 0.25 instead of 0.06 and it has a Gold Reward Multiplier of 0.2 instead of 0.
So first I suggest to harmonize the two and consider 0.06 and 0 as default.

2/ The reward multipliers are not properly set so when you end up with 1 item, you get very few gold, compared to the value you get if you are lucky to get 2 items.
Basically, the average item reward value is 1080 = 900 (Very Strong defenders) * 1.2 (item reward multiplier).
A Mythical item has a value of 300 and a Legendary item of 225 (see Wikia).
So let's compare situations:
- 1 Mythical item: you get (1080-300)*0.06 = 46.8 gold
- 2 Mythical items: you get (1080-600)*0.06 = 28.8 gold
- 1 Legendary item: you get (1080-225)*0.06 = 51.3 gold
- 2 Legendary items: you get (1080-450)*0.06 = 37.8 gold
- 1 Legendary and 1 Mythical item: you get (1080-525)*0.06 = 33.3 gold

So almost no difference whether you get 1 or 2 items.
I suggest the following changes:
- reduce the item reward value to what is necessary to get 2 Mythical items, not more, since the rest is wasted, so set it at 600, i.e. put the Item reward multiplier at 600/900 = about 0.67.
- increase significantly the excess reward multiplier so that you get appropriate gold if you get Legendary items: set the multiplier to 0.75

With these changes, you would get between 0 (2 Mythical items) and 281 (1 Legendary item) gold. We can tweak the multiplier to set the maximum we want if 281 is deemed too high.


[EDIT] It seems no excess gold is provided if a threshold of 150 gold value (more or less) is not exceeded. Also, a variance of 20% on rewards' gold value needs to be taken into account. So in the end, I suggest those values after some tests:
- reduce the item reward value to what is necessary to get 2 Mythical items, not more, since the rest is wasted, so set it at 600x1.2, i.e. put the Item reward multiplier at 600x1.2/900 = about 0.84.
- increase significantly the excess reward multiplier so that you get appropriate gold if you get Legendary items: set the multiplier to 0.5[/EDIT]

With these changes, you would get between 78 (or 0 with the threshold) (2 Mythical items) and 265 (1 Legendary item) gold.
 
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Marcus Pers

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I suggest the following changes:
- reduce the item reward value to what is necessary to get 2 Mythical items, not more, since the rest is wasted, so set it at 600
- increase significantly the excess reward multiplier so that you get appropriate gold if you get Legendary items: set the multiplier to 0.75

With these changes, you would get between 0 (2 Mythical items) and 281 (1 Legendary item) gold. We can tweak the multiplier to set the maximum we want if 281 is deemed too high.
Agree 100%, 281+225 is roughly 500g which seems like a good gold reward if you are unlucky to just get 1 item.
 

Marcus Pers

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Currently they pick units among Buttercup, Toadstool and Nightshade Fairies. One idea woud be to add Unicorns and Wisps. For balance reasons, Nymphs would not be added as they can provide mind-control.
Im not against adding the unicorn as a reward, but then it need to remove the "dedicated to", otherwise it becomes a problematic reward for other alignments.
Wisps are not good enough to be a reward, imo.
 

El_Lobo1986

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I agree with Marcus that wisps are too weak and unicorns could be quite useful. Anyways I like all kind of feys because the have 3 damage channels what is helpful in many cases. I don't think we should change giants and dragons. it's fine like it is.
 

Hiliadan

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Jun 17, 2018
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Ok so here are some proposals from this discussion:

RS1: Fey Dwelling's list of potential unit reward from Quest include Nightshade Fairy, Toadstool Fairy, Buttercup Fairy and Unicorn (was Nightshade Fairy, Toadstool Fairy, Buttercup Fairy)

Marcus suggested to remove the Dedicated to Good but nobody supported the idea so far. Personally I'm a bit torn, I think non-Dedicated to Good is weird, and Archon Revenants are all Dedicated to Evil, and yet that's what the Archon Dwelling gives as rewards.

RS2: All Ziggurats now provide the same rewards: one or two items picked among Legendary and Mythical items, and between 0 and 281 gold in average, depending on the rarity and number of items received: 0 gold if 2 Mythical items are received, 281 gold if 1 Legendary item is received (was between 26.8 and 51.3 gold in the non-Naga Ziggurat and between 300 and 393 in the Naga Ziggurat)
[technically speaking, Gold Reward Multiplier is set at 0 in "Ziggurat default DUPLICATE" in Structure_DLC2.rpk. Excess gold reward multiplier is set at 0.75 in all the reward sets of Ziggurat (two)]
 

gladis

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RS1: For, Unicorn should keep Dedicated to Good. Only the summoned Hell Hound has no Dedicated to Evil because It's another unit acquired through Fire Adept.

RS2: For (Defender sets should be similar in difficulty now)
 

El_Lobo1986

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I vote for both. I don't like removing the "dedicated to good" from unicorns because that what it is. If your alignement is evil you can sell the reward or just use the unicorn as a bait.
 

Rodmar18

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And make Fell Horse Dedicated to Neutrality. You know... Unicorn dedicated to Good, Nightmare dedicated to Evil, and Fell Horse dedicated to Neutrality. In the unit's description, the Fell Horse saves Ham from a certain death, for a good Halfling meal. Now, I'm out.:D:rolleyes:
 

Travel69

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Balancing of rewards is way too complicated for me. I basically support all minor changes that reduce rewards.
 

Hiliadan

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Jun 17, 2018
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Opening discussion on another site's reward set...

Lost City
Lost City is the very similar to Ziggurat. It's a Mythical site, with no battlefield enchantment and it gives up to 2 items + the extra reward is gold, see https://age-of-wonders-3.fandom.com/wiki/Template:Lost_City
It suffers from the same issue as Ziggurat: an Item Reward Multiplier of 1.2 which doesn't make sense, and an Excess Reward Multiplier of 0.25 which is insufficient and means you get almost as much gold when you get 1 Legendary item as when you get 2 Mythical items (which is not fair). See post on the Ziggurat for a more detailed analysis: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...structures-reward-sets.1148606/#post-25126778
This is the current situation for Lost Cities:
- 1 Mythical item: you get (1080-300)*0.25 = 195 gold
- 2 Mythical items: you get (1080-600)*0.25 = 120 gold
- 1 Legendary item: you get (1080-225)*0.25 = 214 gold
- 2 Legendary items: you get (1080-450)*0.25 = 158 gold
- 1 Legendary and 1 Mythical item: you get (1080-525)*0.25 = 139 gold


I think Lost Cities are easier to clear than Ziggurat so it should not be possible to get 2 Mythical items in my opinion. Therefore I suggest a harsher nerf than Ziggurat: the Item Reward Multiplier is reduced to 0.59 so that in normal situations, you can only get 1 Legendary item + 1 Mythical item at best, and 2 Mythical items is not possible any more (though I believe the random variance is 0.2 so it will unfortunately still be possible if you're lucky). The Excess Reward Multiplier is increased to 0.75 as for Ziggurat, to increase the difference between the situations.

That would get us to:
- 1 Mythical item: you get 173 gold
- 2 Mythical items: impossible except if very lucky
- 1 Legendary item: you get 230 gold
- 2 Legendary items: you get 61 gold
- 1 Legendary and 1 Mythical item: you get 5 gold

What everyone thinks about this proposal?
 

El_Lobo1986

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I am not sure about your proposal, Hili. Why don't we link the reward to the ressources you get if you sell an item? Legendary items give 90 gold and mythical 120 gold when they are sold, right? Additional you get some mana but I am not sure about the exact amount. Let's say the best you can get is two mythical items, next best thing is one mythical + one legendary + gold (difference between selling legendary and mythical items), then 1 mythical + gold (amout of ressources you get when selling a mythical item) and so on...
 

Hiliadan

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Jun 17, 2018
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Why don't we link the reward to the ressources you get if you sell an item?
We can do that but that's close to what I'm suggesting. The sale value is 60% of the gold value (Common item = worth 50 gold in the game; 20 gold and 5 mana when sold, or 20+5*2 = 30 gold, i.e. 30/50 = 60% sale coefficient).
So we can set the Excess Reward Multiplier at 0.6 instead of 0.75. But then it would make sense to do the same for Ziggurat (we had set it at 0.75).
 

Marcus Pers

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Agree with this:
That would get us to:
- 1 Mythical item: you get 173 gold
- 2 Mythical items: impossible except if very lucky
- 1 Legendary item: you get 230 gold
- 2 Legendary items: you get 61 gold
- 1 Legendary and 1 Mythical item: you get 5 gold

/Marcus
 

gladis

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The list is about Lost City, right? Seems fine to me too. I am not that much into reward calculations but I trust Hili (in this case):D

Hili, could you do such a list for Ziggurat (copy of existing one) and Sunken City, too and post it here for better comparison?
 
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Hiliadan

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Jun 17, 2018
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Answer from phirpo:
i once said that i dont see rewards so much as an issue (at least in comparison to other much more urgent matters)
[...]
you seemed to have preoccupied yourself with this longer and i dont wanna invest the time to deal with the reward issue, so i kinda entrust it to you, to fix it or screw it up and then in turn fix it again, and i ll vote with yes what you ll propose
 

Hiliadan

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Jun 17, 2018
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So there are some issues with Ziggurat, which I plan to work on again later. Meanwhile the proposals for Lost City are on hold, because they probably wouldn't work as expected (just like Ziggurat's).

I open a new area of discussions: RP rewards from Wizard Tower Ruins and Sphinx Temple. The RP rewards are quite significant and have very significant impacts on games, especially on Fast settings (with RP requirements for each skill lower). So I suggest to do a small tweak and reduce RP reward by 10% as a start.

Wizard Tower Ruins
3 types of rewards + excess reward = research.
Excess Reward Multiplier : 0.2 => as detailed here, in the current situation, you get between 9 RP and about 180 RP (880 gold equivalent).
Item Reward Multiplier: 0.6 => average item value: 900*0.6=540 which means there is always some excess gold to attribute as Mythical items have a value of 300
Knowledge Reward Multiplier: 0.4 => average RP gained (outside excess value) = 900*0.4/5= 72
Skill Reward Multiplier: 5 => average RP value of the skill = 900*5/5 = 900 RP

Several options had been discussed (this post, this one, and that one):
1/ Skill Reward Multiplier: 9 (was 5) and rework of the RP costs of Secret Spells as described here
Excess Reward Multiplier : 0.11 (was 0.2) to maintain the same maximum excess RP
2/ Item Reward Multiplier: 0.34 (was 0.6) to have no excess RP if a Mythical item is obtained
Excess Reward Multiplier: 0.06 (was 0.2) to prevent the sale cap value of 500 from being exceeded
3/ drastic rework of RP values: change the RP "gold-equivalent" from 5 to maybe 1. Then instead of having a difference of (300-225)*0.2/5=3 RP between getting a Mythical (300 gold value) or Legendary (225 gold value) item, we would get (300-225)*0.2/1=15 RP, and potentially even more if the Excess Reward Multiplier is raised.
Potential side-effects of changing the 5 gold = 1 RP on the overall game (it's a "global setting", not specific to the Wizard Tower Ruins):
- Knowledge score might be affected (unsure if it's the same parameter)
- that would multiply the RP or skill rewards on all sites giving RP or skills (by 5/[new value]), and the associated excess rewards, so basically we need to identify all those sites and edit them
- any other thing giving skills or RP as rewards would be affected
- the AI will probably value RP less in diplomatic trade
So if we go with a RP value of 1 gold, then, we can set:
Skill Reward Multiplier: 1.8 (1600/900 = 1.77; so in this proposal, we implement the changes suggested on the "Secret Spells" thread: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/threads/changes-to-the-rp-values-of-secret-spells.1122258/)
Knowledge Reward Multiplier: 0.08
Item Reward Multiplier: 0.34
Excess Reward Multiplier: 0.2 (we would get 15 RP more when getting Legendary instead of Mythical; it's hard to do better without giving too many excess RP when getting a Dire Pinguin, basically here you get 0.2*(900-[RP value of the skill awarded]); the only solution would be to increase the difference in gold value between Mythical - 300 - and Legendary - 225)

Another option is just to tweak without any structural change:
4/ Knowledge Reward Multiplier: 0.36 (10% less). However, that will only reduce RP by about 7, which is actually not much compared to the 180 RP you can get through the excess reward mechanism...

Going to do the Sphinx Temple later...
 
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