Reworking the duchy of Dauphiné - problems and possible solutions

[CaptainPolyp]

Hello everyone,

With the new DD getting really close to the beautiful Dauphiné, I wonder whether this was a good time to see how it could be reworked. This thread is here to list the problems and try to think of simple solutions.

At first, I will focus on the Dauphiné, but the discussion could be extended to all the provinces represented in the duchy of Dauphiné.

To start over, I summon @Wilk with whom the discussion began in the DD thread.

Note: If I'm clearly wrong about anything about the history of the region, please tell me... ^^

Duchy of Dauphiné in CK2:
This seems to be a fictive duchy which aims at giving a structure to a constellation of small ecclesiastic or secular states under the HRE (Lyon, Viennois/Dauphiné, Vivarais), or small county under the Kingdom of France (Forez).

The county of Vienne/Viennois/Dauphiné
The main problem is that the Dauphiné was most importantly a county under the counts of Albon (Dauphiné Viennois), within the HRE and a prominent rival of the counts of Savoy, until it was sold to the Kingdom of France in 1349 and became a territory directly held by the royal family (either the king or its heir, re-baptised as Dauphin, following the tradition of the counts of Albon). Grenoble was its capital.
To the best of my limited knowledge, during the HRE period (1040-1349), Vienne was not under the counts of Albon, but was an Archbishopric.
In CK2, the county of Vienne represents the Dauphiné. Its capital holding is Albon (castle), with Vienne as bishopric and Grenoble as city. This seem quite correct in my opinion.

A few problems I noticed:

The duchy of Dauphiné:
- I does not make a lot of sense, putting together independent counties
- Portraying it as a large duchy with Lyon as capital county feels very strange... from my perspective, having grown up in the Dauphiné. I admit, this is mainly the name Dauphiné for the duchy which is problematic to me

The county of Vienne;
Borders:
- right now, this is a very big county
- Its borders do not encompass the Briançonnais (the Eastern end of the Dauphiné, which is within the county Forcalquier in the present map). The Oisans and Briançonnais were under the counts of Albon from 1040. If we take the earlier start dates, putting the Briançonnais within Forcalquier is not false. If the map of reference is set up for 1066, then there may be a problem.
- Its borders include the Valentinois/Diois, which should not happen long before the Dauphiné was sold to France in 1349. So between this point and the precedent, there is an inconsistency.

Feudal setup:
- in 1066, the count of Vienne is vassal of the duke of Provence. This feels wrong to me. I assumed that the Dauphiné was directly under the Emperor, but if someone with an academic background have sources showing me I am wrong, I'll welcome them.
- in 1337, the count of Vienne is vassal of the duke of Savoy which is wrong since this is precisely a period of tensions between the Dauphiné and Savoy (where England courted Savoy and France courted the Dauphiné).
- there may be other problems... I don't know much about the setup during earlier start dates, notably the Burgundian period (the dauphiné was part of the duchy of Lower Burgundy, and part of the Burgundian Kingdom of Arles)


Some solutions to improve the representation of the region:

- As proposed by Wilk, the County of Vienne could be split between the Viennois/Dauphiné and the Valentinois/Diois. for the names, counties of Dauphiné and Valentinois would be OK.

- The Duchy of Dauphiné could be split between two small duchies (again Wilk): The Duchy of Lyonnais with the counties of Lyon and Forez and the duchy of Dauphiné with the counties of Dauphiné/Viennois and Valentinois/Diois. Vivarais could be added to the duchy of Provence
This should be reasonnably accurate for representing the history and strength of the Dauphiné (not very strong, but with a comparable strength as medieval Savoy... Renaissance Savoy was much stronger).
About representing Lyon, I don't know if this solution creates more problems... if someone has input on this. Same for Vivarais*

- Re-draw the Dauphiné province (Vienne in the current map) so that it includes the Briançonnais

- Let the count of Dauphiné be independent under the emperor. Although this may pose problems with the vassal limit... I never played in the HRE so I don't know if there are some special mechanics allowing for very small realm (such as archbishoprics or counts) to live within the HRE.


* Although I'm confident someone from this region would suggest that Vivarais should be an independent one county kingdom

 

[CaptainPolyp]

One suggestion which could be made given my precedent post, is splitting the current county of Vienne into 3 or 4 counties: Dauphiné/Viennois, Vienne, Valentinois/Diois and eventually, Oisans/Briançonnais.

This would allow to represent the borders of the Dauphiné in the early start dates (Dauphiné/Viennois + Vienne) in the HRE period (Dauphiné/Viennois + Oisans/Briançonnais) and in the French period (Dauphiné/Viennois + Vienne + Oisans/Briançonnais + Valentinois/Diois). Besides, in the HRE period, the Archbishopric of Vienne could be also represented.

I don't think putting that much counties to a realm with such a modest strength (and very modest influence in the medieval era) would be a good thing. The number of holdings per counties would be very small and I don't think this simple fact would add up much flavour... I think a 2 counties duchy with a reasonable number of holdings compared with Savoy would be sufficient.

 

[WJS]

Total non-sequitur, but I have to post this.

Maybe things need to look something like this?

Spoiler

 

[Wilk]

It's hard to find a perfect solution for this region.
Vienne is quite a big county, hence the idea of splitting it. In my opinion, a separation in two counties would be a balanced solution (4 counties would lead to ridiculously small regions). That way, the historical evolutions of Valentinois/Diois/Barronies regions could be represented. Moreover, I think that cities like Die and especially Valence would deserve to appear since the earlier start dates.

The creation of a Lyon duchy could be a solution. Not sure if it is entirely relevant though.

I agree with CaptainPolyp conceirning the historical about counts of Vienne lieges.

 

[CaptainPolyp]

Total non-sequitur, but I have to post this.

Maybe things need to look something like this?

Spoiler

Dauphiné should definitely be a De Jure Empire, let the gratin dauphinois spread its way accross Europe ^^

It's hard to find a perfect solution for this region.
Vienne is quite a big county, hence the idea of splitting it. In my opinion, a separation in two counties would be a balanced solution (4 counties would lead to ridiculously small regions). That way, the historical evolutions of Valentinois/Diois/Barronies regions could be represented. Moreover, I think that cities like Die and especially Valence would deserve to appear since the earlier start dates.

The creation of a Lyon duchy could be a solution. Not sure if it is entirely relevant though.

I agree with CaptainPolyp conceirning the historical about counts of Vienne lieges.

And I clearly agree about having Die and Valence appear.

About the count of Albon being independent from Provence in 1066, I am not sure anymore. I checked the HIP setup for the region and in the mod, they are still vassals of the duke of Provence (within the HRE). I don't know if CK2 mechanics (vassal limit of the Emperor) or balance issues make this necessary even in HIP, or if there are clear historical bases for this. If someone with more historical/academic knowledge can confirm this, it would be great.

Other than that, the HIP setup does a very good job portraying the region.
The counts of Albon hold 3 counties:
- Viennois,
- Grésivaudan: including the Grésivaudan, Grenoble area, the Oisans and all the way to the Briançonnais... (Forcalquier province has been redrawn accordingly)
- Valentinois, including the Valentinois and Diois

The duchy of Dauphiné includes the 3 aforementioned counties plus Lyon and the Vivarais (but not the Forez). Thus the duchy can represent a goal for the count of Albon. This is kind of the same approach as the current vanilla map, although the Forez felt weirder than the Vivarais, being attached to the Dauphiné.

Maybe the Valentinois should not be owned by the count of Albon directly in 1066 (but maybe they have better sources than me). But gameplay wise, it allows the count to create the duchy of Dauphiné as soon as he gets the money from it, which unlocks all the nice features such as crown focus, tech generation, and make him independent from the Duke of Provence... So I guess this is not a bad choice.

In the mod, the capital county is Viennois (with Albon as capital holding). The county of Grésivaudan is not well developed which seems quite historical too me. Grenoble was made capital of the Dauphiné, while the region was less developed than the Viennois (but I guess it a better control over the mountainous regions of the county).
In terms of gameplay, it makes more sense to have Viennois as capital county, especially given the original holdings of the count of Albon... but the player can still move it for a more historical setup.


Now, this setup is balanced for HIP, whose map have more counties (but no India). So I still think that in the vanilla map, 2 counties is still the best, more balanced option: A big province including Viennois, Grésivaudan, Oisans and Briançonnais, and another province for the Valentinois and Diois.
- this would make one province resembling the shape of the Dauphiné during the HRE period
- this resolve the problem of the capital county not being Grésivaudan in HIP (for legitimate balance/gameplay reasons tho).
- the 3 first holdings can still be Albon (barony), Vienne (bishopric) and Grenoble (city), with more names for the additional holdings, such as Vif (barony), La Tour du Pin (barony), Briançon (city or barony), Chartreuse (bishopric)...
- this would give more importance to Valence and Die, and allow to portray their later addition to the Dauphiné.

About the duchy, I don't know what's best between splitting the duchy of Dauphiné (Dauphiné and Lyon), or keep the approach of both the vanilla map and HIP. In terms of gameplay, this is more interesting to make it as an early, ahistorical goal for the Count of Albon (integrate Lyon and Vivarais). A 2 counties duchy of Dauphiné does not bring much gameplay-wise... Vivarais can be added as third county tho.

(again a long post... sorry about that ^^ )

 

[Wilk]

(again a long post... sorry about that ^^ )

Long but interesting