- Aug 27, 2016
I like very much this idea for monastery system.
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Thank you - the product of constant trial and failure, I suppose. And duly noted; the OP is updated to include increased Idea Cost.I think you absolutely nailed it this time.
I'd just add the +5% idea cost suggested in the comments so that the devs don't accidentally ignore it .
I believe I once edited the files in my own personal mod so that any nations with an Iberian, Japanese, Chinese, Thai, Mon Khmer, Cushitic, Iroquoian or Tupi culture as their primary culture, or those with Austrian, Bavarian, Polish or Lithuanian as their primary culture, could select it.Solid stuff right here. Might have inspired me to do something for the Caribbean and the atlantic world in general :v
It would be nice if we had something for the ursulines, though, since they were a fairly influential women's religious order. And some DHEs of Jesuits arriving in some of the states they did historically; for example, in Poland-Lithuania the nobility flirted heavily with various brands of Protestantism, but the Jesuits were an essential part of bringing those nobles back into the fold. I suppose it's represented well enough by missionary strength.
Number of independent nations. (I am assuming you mean the rework to Papal Controller.)Why do it based on the number of nations - why not the total development of nations?
Gameplay: it gives you a nice tradeoff between easier control of the Papacy and a stronger Papacy. If it's just development, the best strategy is to create a 3000 development catholic megablob.Why do it based on the number of nations - why not the total development of nations?
Why, thank you!And having watched your posts I assume that you have done sufficient research here. Hopefully the devs are paying attention.
Yeah, Religious Zeal is annoying. I believe it was implemented to deal with the issue of provinces flip-flopping as a result of CoR, but it's not the optimal solution. My personal preference for solving it would be to have provinces have minorities so converting it once simply isn't enough; it'd also resolve the issue of conversion being too easy.You do mention one of the more annoying mechanics to me in game, though, also - the -100% for religious zeal. This was a reasonable modifier when you only got zeal after religious rebels took a province after *sieging* down the fort there (back in the day when all provinces were essentially fortified). But the fact that you get decades-long zeal from, say, a missionary seems wrong to me, or at least of the wrong length. There has to be a more gradated way of implementing religious zeal than there is in game atm. Right now there is only really a small window between 'cannot be converted at this time' and 'conversion time is automatically less than a year', because every modifier for conversion is contained within the percent speed. When I have, say, an advanced Protestant nation with religious ideas, every province is either 6-10 months conversion or literally impossible until the modifier wears off. I would kill for a system that made 'difficult' provinces actually difficult, rather than 'impossible then easy'.
Yeah, I don't actually mind it with the CoRs having zeal, as that, like religious rebels, is sort of akin to a mass of people rising up under a religious leader. It's at least deeply weird, though, that just a regular missionary invokes that same penalty.Yeah, Religious Zeal is annoying. I believe it was implemented to deal with the issue of provinces flip-flopping as a result of CoR, but it's not the optimal solution. My personal preference for solving it would be to have provinces have minorities so converting it once simply isn't enough; it'd also resolve the issue of conversion being too easy.
I love this idea! And the Papal States should start off with one in the middle of Naples as it did historically. Many Italian threads have suggested this province and to be owned by the Papal States itself, or an independent nation or a vassal, but this would make the most sense!Could I also make some suggestions?
What I've always wanted to see is perhaps allowing a country to release a monastic order for the cost of a certain amount of prestige and money. There's presicence for this plenty of states had large church estates and some of these were small states. Each country would only be allowed to have one order and it would only be allowed to have one province. It wouldn't cost a diplomatic relation but it wouldn't come to your aid in wars although you would have to guarantee it. And unlike a vassal you couldn't receive any forcelimit, trade or monetary boost from it. Instead having a monastery would give you an annual +1 for papal influence and perhap would get you a cardinal and would give you certain vassal interactions which could be beneficial
It might help to nerf the +10% vs Heretics Missionary Strength boon you get upon converting for a lot of these issues. CoR already convert fast enough as it is.I really like these suggestions but one problem for me regarding catholic/protestant/reformed interactions is how easily these can convert from one to the other. you can go catholic protestant or protestant reformed etc. and you will probably never get zealots or if you do you will just kill them easily unless your country was really destroyed by a war or your are a minor. It is just ridiculously easy. zealots should be stronger and more numerous. And province converting should give you a real and dangerous chance of revolutions. Not to mention converting your entire population within a few decades.
I *think* the idea there is to help AI conversion, but I have to agree it's awfully silly if you are a player - it's too large and lasts too long. I had a pretty large Bohemia in my last game by the time Protestantism rolled around, and between the CoR and the bonus I was completely converted within five years or so.It might help to nerf the +10% vs Heretics Missionary Strength boon you get upon converting for a lot of these issues. CoR already convert fast enough as it is.
Heresy!As it’s been a while since I’ve made a massive suggestion thread, and I’ve been coming up with ideas on how to revise Catholicism for some time now, I now present this, which I will break up into three sections for ease of access. True to form, this contains a very lengthy rationale with game variables interspersed between.
Base Bonus, the Counter Reformation, and Centers of Reformation
To open this, I would like to address what is perhaps the most glaring issue with Catholicism; it’s base bonuses. Or, rather, the fact that it gets penalized for merely existing while everyone else is rewarded.
-1 Tolerance of Heretics is both a) undeserved, as that would imply that they were inherently more intolerant of Heretics than their coreligionists, which was not that case, and b) is just unfun, as it pigeonholes you into Religious.
Yes, there are decisions to counteract it, but is anyone really going to take the penalties that come with them when Reformed is just a click away? Especially considering it gives a large monetary bonus, easy way of converting all your Catholic provinces, and quality bonuses that Catholicism does not provide (and is usually painless if you go Humanist, at that).
Now, I suppose one can counter that -1 Tolerance of Heretics isn’t a true penalty given that it slows down the rate of CoR’s conversion, but ultimately that belies the fact that you must inherently be penalized while everyone else is rewarded to make a mechanic designed to convert your provinces and weaken you internally be balanced.
Ultimately, -1 Tolerance of Heretics is not fun or good for the game. So, if it is going to be removed, that brings up the obvious question of what to replace it with.
I propose -5% Development Cost – a very fitting bonus if we look at what Development represents, that both synergizes quite well with Catholicism without being overpowered. First, though, we must ask; what does Development in EU4 represent? Taking into account the flavor texts associated with it and the starting levels of 1444 in game, I have come to what I believe is the safe conclusion that Development is a combination of many factors; population, reliance on mechanical/non-human power, infrastructure, quality of the land of the province, and local education (as the University gives a large discount to development cost). What does this have to do with Catholicism?
As Catholic doctrine on population should speak for itself, I will instead cover the other categories. First would be reliance on mechanical power – it’s a little known fact, but monastic estates in Europe were some of the keenest adopters of it; for example, a ninth century inventory of estates along the Seine found that a third of them had watermills, the majority of them belonging to religious estates (another inventory about two centuries later found one mile of the Siene near Paris had ninety-eight watermills alone on it). Inversely, the Romans knew of water power but were loath to use it; why invest in a watermill when one can simply rely on cheap slave labor? With the ban on enslaving Jews and fellow Christians in the Medieval Ages came a first in human history; a place and prolonged period of time were slavery was almost nonexistent as an economical or societal factor – this ultimately led to an explosion in technological progress, particularly in the mechanical field, which greatly increased production and the quality of life of your average European back then.
This was particularly true of the Cistercians, who made enormous use of their waterpower (with most all Cistercian monasteries having at least a watermill) for nearly everything; from crushing wheat, producing flour, fulling cloth to even, tanning, powering their furnaces and so on. They were also quite adept when it came to metallurgy; most Cistercian monasteries also contained a forge powered by the watermill, contained in a separate building devoted to the refinement of ore. Excess iron was sold which helped bolster the local economy – the Cistercians were even the leading producer of iron in Champagne from the thirteen to seventeenth centuries - while slag from the furnaces were used as fertilizer in the fields.
Mendicant Orders working to improve the quality of life was also true elsewhere; take for example the Jesuit Reductions in Paraguay (otherwise known as the Jesuit Republic of Paraguay), many of which had paved streets, symphony orchestras, and by all means were more than rivals to the cities of their colonial neighbors. The Guarani were even able to field armies trained in Western military tactics, armed with muskets and cannons, that managed to repulse Spanish and Portuguese colonial armies for a time (this would later go on to be the basis for the 1986 movie The Mission). Or on the other side of the globe, the Jesuits were also more or less responsible for the construction of Nagasaki and its transformation into one of Japan’s most important port-cities, even introducing the first printing press to the nation.
Machinery and city-building weren’t the only developmental fields the orders dabbled in; they were also quite active in cultivating and clearing land. It had its origins in the Rule of St. Benedict (and hence why Benedictines were the most famous for it), but many monks were actively involved in agriculture, cultivating land, forestry, clearing out swamps, and – most obviously – the development of wines. Probably one of the best examples of this would be William of Malmesbury’s (1096 - 1143) description of Thorney Abbey – located in an area of Southampton that had been nothing but swampland before its foundation:
“Not an inch of land as far as the eye can reach lies uncultivated. Here the soil is hidden by fruit trees; there by vines stretched upon the ground or trailed on trellises. Nature and art rival each other, the one supplying all that the other forgets to produce.”
Finally comes the last obvious touch; that the Catholic Church created the University as we know it, in addition to the later educational efforts of missionaries that characterized much of EU4’s period.
So, lengthy explanation aside, I believe I have made an adequate case as to why -5% Development Cost would be a suitable replacement to Heretic Intolerance; it does well to represent the concerted efforts of local monasteries and priests in developing and educating provinces where they are present.
Gamewise this would also be a good change; as the chances of getting a Cardinal are affected by provincial development, this would give smaller nations a bit more say in their ability to get one. In addition, it would be beneficial for New World Catholic Nations; most of the New World is pitifully, if not rightfully, undeveloped and quite enough mana is already spent on keeping up to date with Tech and Ideas as it is – and while Latin America was by no means on par with Europe developmentally by the end of EU4, it was most certainly more developed than it had been even during the height of power of the Aztecs and Inca. Finally, this is by no means a powerful change; thus, it would do little to make Catholicism more directly powerful, and I doubt it would be very controversial either (like, say, suggesting a direct bonus to Tech cost).
Now comes the obvious effect; wouldn’t that make the Reformation spin out of control? Perhaps, and though while I doubt it would significantly impact the pace of conversion it still ought to be covered. Firstly, perhaps it would be good to give Catholicism the -1% Local Missionary Strength that Orthodox gets? While it wouldn’t have a significant impact on the speed of CoR conversion, it would have a decent impact on the speed of manual conversion – CoR convert very quickly, and they will convert quicker early on, so it would at least make the other active missionaries aiding them move a bit slower. It would also help represent how difficult it was to completely stamp out Catholics, such as in Britain or Japan, and the dangers associated with doing so.
Now, this leads into the Counter Reformation, which is sorely in need of an update. Currently the Counter-Reformation gives:
+3% missionary strength vs heretics
+0.5 yearly papal influence
+5% technology cost
+5% idea cost
Now, Missionary Strength vs Heretics is more or less useless as it stands, considering Religious Zeal is now -100% Local Missionary Strength – an inconsolable obstacle compared to back when it was only -8%, and the +3% was used in conjunction with Religious ideas to help overcome it. +2 Missionaries is simply excessive.
+5% Idea and Tech costs are just nonsensical; how is ensuring your priests are well-qualified and educated going to decrease the rate of learning and science in your nation? Almost all the notable scientists during EU4’s period were either religious or clergymen, and the Counter-Reformation produced the Jesuits, whose contributions to the sciences cannot be understated – significant advancements in magnetism, optics, electricity, aviation, astronomy, anatomy, mathematics, botany, physics and geometry can all be attributed to the Jesuits during EU4’s period, nevermind the massive encyclopedias of their data they constantly complied. Ultimately there is nothing to suggest that the Counter-Reformation was in any way detrimental to technological development, and an abundance of evidence to suggest the contrary. Ideological? France was the center of the so-called Enlightenment, Iberia played a massive role in Baroque cultural achievements and Italy was the center of the Renaissance.
Ultimately, the Counter Reformation ought to give:
+1% Missionary Strength
+0.5 Yearly Papal Influence
-5% Technology Cost
-2 Tolerance of Heretics
+5% Idea Cost
-10% National Tax Modifier
+1 Interest Per Annum
This is also where the Religious/Humanist divide as a Catholic should take place, not from the start of the game. +1 Missionary and +1% Missionary Strength is much more reasonable given the abundance of both Christians are able to get (and the Counter Reformation saw an explosion of Missionary activity to heathens as well as heretics), while -5% Tech Cost would rightfully represent an increased emphasis on education. It wouldn’t make much of a difference to Europe, but would be very useful to RotW. -2 Tolerance of Heretics would make up for where it was lost earlier; your priests become better educated and are better at countering the Reformation’s arguments, and an increased emphasis on clerical honesty makes people more trusting of the church and less likely to break from it – though those who already have will not react well to attempts to reestablish Catholicism as the primary denomination. +5% Idea Cost is to represent the increase in church dogma and repression of Protestant thought.
-10% Tax Modifier represents the tax exemptions of mendicant lands – and as the amount of them increases, so do the exemptions. +1 Interest Per Annum represents the Church finally cracking down on clerical usury, as Bishops and Monastic Orders were some of the biggest moneylenders of the medieval ages. While it probably looks odd that cracking down on usury would increase interest, it should be kept in mind that the removal of competition would also allow other lenders to increase their own rates – not to mention Spain had a lot of issues with paying back loans during this time. Overall, this would make the Counter Reformation feel more like the Counter Reformation.
Finally, to better facilitate the spread of the Reformation, I would also suggest a 3-area distance hardcap on CoR of the same religion. Say, for example, Scotland converts to Reformed and gets a CoR in Lothian. This would mean Ireland – which owns all of Ireland and Brittany – would not be able to get a Reformed CoR in Ireland if it were to convert, but would get one in Brittany. Or, say Ireland doesn’t own Brittany and then converts to Reformed – then no CoR forms, and instead Brittany would get the next one when it converts. This way the Reformation will have more spread and spread more effectively – the likelihood of seeing two of three of a denomination’s CoR only a few provinces away from each other would be near nonexistent.
The Treaty of Tordesillas and Mendicant Orders
Now, it’s no secret that Catholicism is awful for anyone outside of Europe, especially in light of the fact that Protestant and Reformed are just a click away. Most people recognize that, and thus any conversion to Catholicism in RotW is almost immediately used as a stepping stone into one of the above. It’s doubly worse for those in the New World – I’ll touch on that first.
The Treaty of Tordesillas was a really nice touch to Catholicism – except that it completely wrecks Natives who convert to Catholicism. Between the opinion malus and colony growth decrease, most are better off converting. And they usually do. The solution is then rather simple; make the effects of the Treaty apply for only nations who have their capitals in Europe (or inversely, make nations who have their capitals in America immune).
The second issue is that, frankly, Catholicism is simply less effective in RotW than in Europe. Protestant Church Power and Reformed Fervor have no continent bias; Catholic Cardinals do. The solution is to not have Cardinals start popping up in Japan and Kongo, but instead to have a new mechanic for nations who are incapable of getting Cardinals. Thus I present my idea for using Mendicant Orders as a mechanic.
The Counter Reformation saw arguably the largest explosion of missionary activity in human history since the Apostolic Age itself; Catholic Missionaries – primarily Iberian and French, but some German and Italian – set out across the world to minister to anyone who would listen. The result was many Filipino and Native American tribes converting, the Kongo becoming semi-Christianized, a short-lived union with the Ethiopian Church, nearly succeeding in converting a Ming Emperor and succeeding in converting a handful of China’s elites, making significant inroads into Japan, some into India and Indochina, and even some excursions into Persia and Mesopotamia. And, of course, the many ‘what-ifs’ left behind. But it does make a very good basis for a mechanic; to this end I have chosen the four most prominent orders that went overseas for this.
This mechanic would be exclusive for those nations whose capitals are not in a province that can get a cardinal – and thus have no access to the college and a difficult time of getting the normal bonuses European Catholics can, and being removed from Papal Politics, no chance of being the controller either. Likewise, while they maintain this mechanic they cannot receive Cardinals either, to prevent an empire from getting the best of both worlds by conquering Europe but putting their capital out of sight.
The mechanic itself works similar to the Hindu Patron Deity mechanic; replacing the College of Cardinals on the Curia Screen, one can choose to patronize one of four different Mendicant Orders with different bonuses and drawbacks; the Jesuits, Franciscans, Dominicans and Augustinians. Unlike the Hindu Patron Deity, however, switching is not dependent on your monarch, but instead of a 10-25 year cooldown like for changing National focuses – except you take a stab hit each time you switch. Each order provides two strong bonuses and one strong penalty:
+10% Institution Spread Rate
-10% Development Cost
+25% Stability Cost
The great educators of the church, the Jesuits primary goals are to instruct and build, which their missions are excellent at. However, their pragmatism and political involvement tends to frustrate both conservative natives and their European patrons, and can create more than a few thorny situations.
+10% Land Morale
+10% Production Efficiency
-1 Diplomatic Reputation
The Franciscans strict poverty and fervent devotion puts them in stark contrast to the Jesuits, but they share their intellectual capabilities and are excellent at inspiring the commoners. However, their zealotry can land them – and even other orders or their patrons – in hot water on more than one occasion.
-15% Advisor Cost
-2 Global Unrest
-10% National Tax Modifier
The Dominicans are in many ways the middle ground between the Franciscans and Jesuits; being able to appeal to both the elites and commoners without excelling at either or causing too much trouble. However, their many estates can prove to be a burden in the long run.
+2 Yearly Papal Influence
+1 Diplomatic Reputation
-1 Yearly Prestige
Being the only order to be directly founded by a Pope, the Augustinians have a special place in the Papal Court and can make it more well-disposed to nations that sponsor them. However, it can also be seen as a form of reliance on the Papacy, which is not the most prestigious of circumstances.
Naturally a handful of events would also have to be written up to represent the benefits and drawbacks of the orders – rivalry among Catholic Monastic Orders is nothing new, and while it may push them to do their best sometimes it causes problems.
Cardinals, Curia/Papal Controller, Kingdom of Heaven and Restoring the Pentarchy
Now, making Catholicism useful for RotW is all well and good, but it still doesn’t address a more glaring issue; how come I can’t get Cardinals in North Africa or the Levant, but I can in Russia? Well, the new area/region system introduced back in 1.14 now presents the perfect opportunity to rectify that! The continental system should be discarded and instead replaced with a list of possible regions Cardinals can appear in – not only would this be more sensible, as provinces just a stone’s throw away from Italy can finally now get Cardinals, but it would also be highly modable. These are the regions that I feel should be able to receive provinces in vanilla:
Egypt (I would recommend moving the Lower Nubia area into the Horn of Africa region for this)
Now, having more flexible Cardinals is all well and good, but it still doesn’t fix one of the biggest problems still plaguing MP; Catholicism is still awful unless if you’re the only Catholic nation left, in which it’s beyond OP. The issue is twofold; Papal Controller is simply too powerful, while Catholicism offers no meaningful military bonuses while practically every other religion in game does.
To touch on the latter first; while the Franciscans might change that for RotW, it still wouldn’t make a difference in Europe; Protestant can give +5% Morale and +2.5% Discipline at the same time, Reformed can give +10% Morale, Sunni can get +10% Morale and Shia +15%, with both able to tack on +20% Manpower, all Buddhists can get +5% Discipline and Vajrayana also tacks on +5% Morale, Shinto gets +10% Morale, Hindu can get +5% Discipline and Siege Ability, Sikh gets +10% Morale and -10% Mil Tech Cost, Tengri gets a rouge’s gallery of choices, Norse gets Forcelimit, and a choice between Discipline or Leader Shock, Inti gets +10% Morale, Mayan gets +10% Infantry Combat Ability, Nahautl can get +10% Morale and 5% Discipline at the same time, Fetishists will have access to +5% Morale and +2.5% Discipline, and Copts will be able to get +2.5% Discipline. Even Orthodox’s Manpower Bonus is better than the +15% Manpower Recovery Speed that Proclaim Holy War gives you.
Thus, it would be best if Proclaim Holy War instead gave +5% Discipline or +10% Morale – I favor the former, as both Franciscans and Reformed have the latter covered. I’d also say that Grant Indulgence for Sins should give Devotion, Unity and Tradition in addition to Legitimacy, but that’s beside the point.
But that’s still just one side to the coin; the other is that Papal Controller is simply OP. Take a look at its bonuses:
+1 Yearly prestige
−10% Stability cost modifier
+2 Possible advisors
−20% Advisor cost
+1 Leader(s) without upkeep
−20% Aggressive expansion impact
−5% Technology cost
Rather than having all these bonuses at once, they should instead be unlocked progressively based on the number of Catholic nations; the more independent Catholics out there, the more bonuses are unlocked. To effectively branch them off into tiers:
+1 Possible Advisors
-10% Advisor Cost
-5% Technology Cost
-10% Stability Cost Modifier
+1 Leader(s) without Upkeep
+1 Yearly Prestige
-10% Aggressive Expansion Impact
This would mean that if you, the Pope and a handful of OPMs were the only Catholics left (either by your own hand of the computer's) you would get squat for monopolizing the Curia; the Pope's authority would be nigh in the age of massive blobs who easily puppet him. Whereas if you make sure that Catholicism still has a strong independent following even in the face of the (hopefully more effective) Reformation, your grip on the Curia won't be guaranteed but inversely it will provide a stronger payoff.
Now, to help further encourage such a mechanic, each time you either voluntarily release one of your Catholic vassals, force another nation to release a Catholic nation, or force a reunion with Rome, you also get a PI bonus comparable to converting a province. Forcing another nation to release the Papal States (not releasing it yourself) will give a much larger PI gain, or a modifier that increases your PI gain for X amount of years, while returning a province to the Papacy will also give a smaller amount. Inversely, you should get half of your vassal's PI gain when they convert a province; so there's still benefit in having vassals.
Ultimately between nerfing Papal Controller and buffing Proclaim Holy War (and possibly Grant Indulgence), it should make Catholicism more competitive without being OP – being the only Catholic nation left would no longer be as profitable as before, and the extra incentive for other nations to stay Catholic would mean that there would be less monopolies on Cardinals, and thus PI - it would also mean that Catholic nations wouldn't be as incentivized to cannibalize each other once the Reformation hits.
Now we come to the penultimate point of this; revising the Kingdom of God. It’s a very questionable decision at best, considering it disables the Curia, and all its associated bonuses for +10% National Manpower, +1 Prestige and +1 Devotion – and ultimately it removes all reason for any remaining Catholic nations to stay Catholic, even those with PI gain in their NI sets, and often leaves you isolated; which kind of goes against the whole point of establishing Papal Primacy.
So, in lieu of a more in depth rework, I will suggest this; the Kingdom of God, in addition to its current requirements, will also require that all Cardinal Seats are filled up and that the Papacy is the Papal Controller. After enacting it, it only disables the College of Cardinals – not the Curia itself, with the PI actions still usable – and like a certain HRE Reform, the Papacy is henceforth permanently the Papal Controller, while all nations that could once get Cardinals now have access to Mendicant Orders. This way enacting the Kingdom of God would be more challenging, but you also wouldn’t shoot yourself in the foot and it would still give incentive for other nations to remain Catholic.
Finally, to touch on another decision in need of a rework (especially because it's associated religion got buffed): Restoring the Pentarchy should not disable the Curia, merely do the opposite of Kingdom of God and disable the Papal Controller until Rome is retaken by Catholics. This way it wouldn't principally wreck the game for them, but still provide some incentives for them to convert with now additional incentives for ones that stay Catholics to push back against the Orthodox. It should also actually give permanent bonuses (and an achievement, at that) instead of large one-time bonuses; otherwise it just comes across as a way to troll Catholics.
All in all, this is my lengthy suggestion for a sorely needed rework/expansion of Catholicism (and some co-religionist mechanics that affect it), and thank you for taking the time to read it.