• Hey, Guest! We’re glad you are a part of the Paradox Community and want to know what you think about it. Please let us know by filling out this short survey. We appreciate it!
  • Crusader Kings III Available Now!

    The realm rejoices as Paradox Interactive announces the launch of Crusader Kings III, the latest entry in the publisher’s grand strategy role-playing game franchise. Advisors may now jockey for positions of influence and adversaries should save their schemes for another day, because on this day Crusader Kings III can be purchased on Steam, the Paradox Store, and other major online retailers.


    Real Strategy Requires Cunning

Grand Historian

Pretentious Username
73 Badges
May 13, 2014
5.200
9.085
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Tyranny - Tales from the Tiers
  • Tyranny - Bastards Wound
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Premium edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall - Revelations
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Season pass
  • Victoria 2
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Deluxe edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Darkest Hour
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
As it’s been a while since I’ve made a massive suggestion thread, and I’ve been coming up with ideas on how to revise Catholicism for some time now, I now present this, which I will break up into three sections for ease of access. True to form, this contains a very lengthy rationale with game variables interspersed between.

Base Bonus, the Counter Reformation, and Centers of Reformation

To open this, I would like to address what is perhaps the most glaring issue with Catholicism; it’s base bonuses. Or, rather, the fact that it gets penalized for merely existing while everyone else is rewarded.

-1 Tolerance of Heretics is both a) undeserved, as that would imply that they were inherently more intolerant of Heretics than their coreligionists, which was not that case, and b) is just unfun, as it pigeonholes you into Religious.

Yes, there are decisions to counteract it, but is anyone really going to take the penalties that come with them when Reformed is just a click away? Especially considering it gives a large monetary bonus, easy way of converting all your Catholic provinces, and quality bonuses that Catholicism does not provide (and is usually painless if you go Humanist, at that).

Now, I suppose one can counter that -1 Tolerance of Heretics isn’t a true penalty given that it slows down the rate of CoR’s conversion, but ultimately that belies the fact that you must inherently be penalized while everyone else is rewarded to make a mechanic designed to convert your provinces and weaken you internally be balanced.

Ultimately, -1 Tolerance of Heretics is not fun or good for the game. So, if it is going to be removed, that brings up the obvious question of what to replace it with.

I propose -5% Development Cost – a very fitting bonus if we look at what Development represents, that both synergizes quite well with Catholicism without being overpowered. First, though, we must ask; what does Development in EU4 represent? Taking into account the flavor texts associated with it and the starting levels of 1444 in game, I have come to what I believe is the safe conclusion that Development is a combination of many factors; population, reliance on mechanical/non-human power, infrastructure, quality of the land of the province, and local education (as the University gives a large discount to development cost). What does this have to do with Catholicism?

As Catholic doctrine on population should speak for itself, I will instead cover the other categories. First would be reliance on mechanical power – it’s a little known fact, but monastic estates in Europe were some of the keenest adopters of it; for example, a ninth century inventory of estates along the Seine found that a third of them had watermills, the majority of them belonging to religious estates (another inventory about two centuries later found one mile of the Siene near Paris had ninety-eight watermills alone on it). Inversely, the Romans knew of water power but were loath to use it; why invest in a watermill when one can simply rely on cheap slave labor? With the ban on enslaving Jews and fellow Christians in the Medieval Ages came a first in human history; a place and prolonged period of time were slavery was almost nonexistent as an economical or societal factor – this ultimately led to an explosion in technological progress, particularly in the mechanical field, which greatly increased production and the quality of life of your average European back then.

This was particularly true of the Cistercians, who made enormous use of their waterpower (with most all Cistercian monasteries having at least a watermill) for nearly everything; from crushing wheat, producing flour, fulling cloth to even, tanning, powering their furnaces and so on. They were also quite adept when it came to metallurgy; most Cistercian monasteries also contained a forge powered by the watermill, contained in a separate building devoted to the refinement of ore. Excess iron was sold which helped bolster the local economy – the Cistercians were even the leading producer of iron in Champagne from the thirteen to seventeenth centuries - while slag from the furnaces were used as fertilizer in the fields.

Mendicant Orders working to improve the quality of life was also true elsewhere; take for example the Jesuit Reductions in Paraguay (otherwise known as the Jesuit Republic of Paraguay), many of which had paved streets, symphony orchestras, and by all means were more than rivals to the cities of their colonial neighbors. The Guarani were even able to field armies trained in Western military tactics, armed with muskets and cannons, that managed to repulse Spanish and Portuguese colonial armies for a time (this would later go on to be the basis for the 1986 movie The Mission). Or on the other side of the globe, the Jesuits were also more or less responsible for the construction of Nagasaki and its transformation into one of Japan’s most important port-cities, even introducing the first printing press to the nation.

Machinery and city-building weren’t the only developmental fields the orders dabbled in; they were also quite active in cultivating and clearing land. It had its origins in the Rule of St. Benedict (and hence why Benedictines were the most famous for it), but many monks were actively involved in agriculture, cultivating land, forestry, clearing out swamps, and – most obviously – the development of wines. Probably one of the best examples of this would be William of Malmesbury’s (1096 - 1143) description of Thorney Abbey – located in an area of Southampton that had been nothing but swampland before its foundation:

“Not an inch of land as far as the eye can reach lies uncultivated. Here the soil is hidden by fruit trees; there by vines stretched upon the ground or trailed on trellises. Nature and art rival each other, the one supplying all that the other forgets to produce.”

Finally comes the last obvious touch; that the Catholic Church created the University as we know it, in addition to the later educational efforts of missionaries that characterized much of EU4’s period.

So, lengthy explanation aside, I believe I have made an adequate case as to why -5% Development Cost would be a suitable replacement to Heretic Intolerance; it does well to represent the concerted efforts of local monasteries and priests in developing and educating provinces where they are present.

Gamewise this would also be a good change; as the chances of getting a Cardinal are affected by provincial development, this would give smaller nations a bit more say in their ability to get one. In addition, it would be beneficial for New World Catholic Nations; most of the New World is pitifully, if not rightfully, undeveloped and quite enough mana is already spent on keeping up to date with Tech and Ideas as it is – and while Latin America was by no means on par with Europe developmentally by the end of EU4, it was most certainly more developed than it had been even during the height of power of the Aztecs and Inca. Finally, this is by no means a powerful change; thus, it would do little to make Catholicism more directly powerful, and I doubt it would be very controversial either (like, say, suggesting a direct bonus to Tech cost).

Now comes the obvious effect; wouldn’t that make the Reformation spin out of control? Perhaps, and though while I doubt it would significantly impact the pace of conversion it still ought to be covered. Firstly, perhaps it would be good to give Catholicism the -1% Local Missionary Strength that Orthodox gets? While it wouldn’t have a significant impact on the speed of CoR conversion, it would have a decent impact on the speed of manual conversion – CoR convert very quickly, and they will convert quicker early on, so it would at least make the other active missionaries aiding them move a bit slower. It would also help represent how difficult it was to completely stamp out Catholics, such as in Britain or Japan, and the dangers associated with doing so.

Now, this leads into the Counter Reformation, which is sorely in need of an update. Currently the Counter-Reformation gives:

+3% missionary strength vs heretics
+0.5 yearly papal influence
+2 missionaries
+5% technology cost
+5% idea cost

Now, Missionary Strength vs Heretics is more or less useless as it stands, considering Religious Zeal is now -100% Local Missionary Strength – an inconsolable obstacle compared to back when it was only -8%, and the +3% was used in conjunction with Religious ideas to help overcome it. +2 Missionaries is simply excessive.

+5% Idea and Tech costs are just nonsensical; how is ensuring your priests are well-qualified and educated going to decrease the rate of learning and science in your nation? Almost all the notable scientists during EU4’s period were either religious or clergymen, and the Counter-Reformation produced the Jesuits, whose contributions to the sciences cannot be understated – significant advancements in magnetism, optics, electricity, aviation, astronomy, anatomy, mathematics, botany, physics and geometry can all be attributed to the Jesuits during EU4’s period, nevermind the massive encyclopedias of their data they constantly complied. Ultimately there is nothing to suggest that the Counter-Reformation was in any way detrimental to technological development, and an abundance of evidence to suggest the contrary. Ideological? France was the center of the so-called Enlightenment, Iberia played a massive role in Baroque cultural achievements and Italy was the center of the Renaissance.

Ultimately, the Counter Reformation ought to give:

+1 Missionary
+1% Missionary Strength
+0.5 Yearly Papal Influence
-5% Technology Cost
-2 Tolerance of Heretics
+5% Idea Cost
-10% National Tax Modifier
+1 Interest Per Annum

This is also where the Religious/Humanist divide as a Catholic should take place, not from the start of the game. +1 Missionary and +1% Missionary Strength is much more reasonable given the abundance of both Christians are able to get (and the Counter Reformation saw an explosion of Missionary activity to heathens as well as heretics), while -5% Tech Cost would rightfully represent an increased emphasis on education. It wouldn’t make much of a difference to Europe, but would be very useful to RotW. -2 Tolerance of Heretics would make up for where it was lost earlier; your priests become better educated and are better at countering the Reformation’s arguments, and an increased emphasis on clerical honesty makes people more trusting of the church and less likely to break from it – though those who already have will not react well to attempts to reestablish Catholicism as the primary denomination. +5% Idea Cost is to represent the increase in church dogma and repression of Protestant thought.

-10% Tax Modifier represents the tax exemptions of mendicant lands – and as the amount of them increases, so do the exemptions. +1 Interest Per Annum represents the Church finally cracking down on clerical usury, as Bishops and Monastic Orders were some of the biggest moneylenders of the medieval ages. While it probably looks odd that cracking down on usury would increase interest, it should be kept in mind that the removal of competition would also allow other lenders to increase their own rates – not to mention Spain had a lot of issues with paying back loans during this time. Overall, this would make the Counter Reformation feel more like the Counter Reformation.

Finally, to better facilitate the spread of the Reformation, I would also suggest a 3-area distance hardcap on CoR of the same religion. Say, for example, Scotland converts to Reformed and gets a CoR in Lothian. This would mean Ireland – which owns all of Ireland and Brittany – would not be able to get a Reformed CoR in Ireland if it were to convert, but would get one in Brittany. Or, say Ireland doesn’t own Brittany and then converts to Reformed – then no CoR forms, and instead Brittany would get the next one when it converts. This way the Reformation will have more spread and spread more effectively – the likelihood of seeing two of three of a denomination’s CoR only a few provinces away from each other would be near nonexistent.


The Treaty of Tordesillas and Mendicant Orders


Now, it’s no secret that Catholicism is awful for anyone outside of Europe, especially in light of the fact that Protestant and Reformed are just a click away. Most people recognize that, and thus any conversion to Catholicism in RotW is almost immediately used as a stepping stone into one of the above. It’s doubly worse for those in the New World – I’ll touch on that first.

The Treaty of Tordesillas was a really nice touch to Catholicism – except that it completely wrecks Natives who convert to Catholicism. Between the opinion malus and colony growth decrease, most are better off converting. And they usually do. The solution is then rather simple; make the effects of the Treaty apply for only nations who have their capitals in Europe (or inversely, make nations who have their capitals in America immune).

The second issue is that, frankly, Catholicism is simply less effective in RotW than in Europe. Protestant Church Power and Reformed Fervor have no continent bias; Catholic Cardinals do. The solution is to not have Cardinals start popping up in Japan and Kongo, but instead to have a new mechanic for nations who are incapable of getting Cardinals. Thus I present my idea for using Mendicant Orders as a mechanic.

The Counter Reformation saw arguably the largest explosion of missionary activity in human history since the Apostolic Age itself; Catholic Missionaries – primarily Iberian and French, but some German and Italian – set out across the world to minister to anyone who would listen. The result was many Filipino and Native American tribes converting, the Kongo becoming semi-Christianized, a short-lived union with the Ethiopian Church, nearly succeeding in converting a Ming Emperor and succeeding in converting a handful of China’s elites, making significant inroads into Japan, some into India and Indochina, and even some excursions into Persia and Mesopotamia. And, of course, the many ‘what-ifs’ left behind. But it does make a very good basis for a mechanic; to this end I have chosen the four most prominent orders that went overseas for this.

This mechanic would be exclusive for those nations whose capitals are not in a province that can get a cardinal – and thus have no access to the college and a difficult time of getting the normal bonuses European Catholics can, and being removed from Papal Politics, no chance of being the controller either. Likewise, while they maintain this mechanic they cannot receive Cardinals either, to prevent an empire from getting the best of both worlds by conquering Europe but putting their capital out of sight.

The mechanic itself works similar to the Hindu Patron Deity mechanic; replacing the College of Cardinals on the Curia Screen, one can choose to patronize one of four different Mendicant Orders with different bonuses and drawbacks; the Jesuits, Franciscans, Dominicans and Augustinians. Unlike the Hindu Patron Deity, however, switching is not dependent on your monarch, but instead of a 10-25 year cooldown like for changing National focuses – except you take a stab hit each time you switch. Each order provides two strong bonuses and one strong penalty:

Jesuits:

+10% Institution Spread Rate
-10% Development Cost
+25% Stability Cost

The great educators of the church, the Jesuits primary goals are to instruct and build, which their missions are excellent at. However, their pragmatism and political involvement tends to frustrate both conservative natives and their European patrons, and can create more than a few thorny situations.

Franciscans:

+10% Land Morale
+10% Production Efficiency
-1 Diplomatic Reputation

The Franciscans strict poverty and fervent devotion puts them in stark contrast to the Jesuits, but they share their intellectual capabilities and are excellent at inspiring the commoners. However, their zealotry can land them – and even other orders or their patrons – in hot water on more than one occasion.

Dominicans:

-15% Advisor Cost
-2 Global Unrest
-10% National Tax Modifier

The Dominicans are in many ways the middle ground between the Franciscans and Jesuits; being able to appeal to both the elites and commoners without excelling at either or causing too much trouble. However, their many estates can prove to be a burden in the long run.

Augustinians:

+2 Yearly Papal Influence
+1 Diplomatic Reputation
-1 Yearly Prestige

Being the only order to be directly founded by a Pope, the Augustinians have a special place in the Papal Court and can make it more well-disposed to nations that sponsor them. However, it can also be seen as a form of reliance on the Papacy, which is not the most prestigious of circumstances.

Naturally a handful of events would also have to be written up to represent the benefits and drawbacks of the orders – rivalry among Catholic Monastic Orders is nothing new, and while it may push them to do their best sometimes it causes problems.

Cardinals, Curia/Papal Controller, Kingdom of Heaven and Restoring the Pentarchy

Now, making Catholicism useful for RotW is all well and good, but it still doesn’t address a more glaring issue; how come I can’t get Cardinals in North Africa or the Levant, but I can in Russia? Well, the new area/region system introduced back in 1.14 now presents the perfect opportunity to rectify that! The continental system should be discarded and instead replaced with a list of possible regions Cardinals can appear in – not only would this be more sensible, as provinces just a stone’s throw away from Italy can finally now get Cardinals, but it would also be highly modable. These are the regions that I feel should be able to receive provinces in vanilla:

Anatolia
Balkan
Baltic
Britain
Carpathia
Caucasia
Crimea
Egypt (I would recommend moving the Lower Nubia area into the Horn of Africa region for this)
France
Iberia
Italy
Low Countries
Maghreb
Mashriq
North Germany
Poland
Russia
Ruthenia
Scandinavia
South Germany

Now, having more flexible Cardinals is all well and good, but it still doesn’t fix one of the biggest problems still plaguing MP; Catholicism is still awful unless if you’re the only Catholic nation left, in which it’s beyond OP. The issue is twofold; Papal Controller is simply too powerful, while Catholicism offers no meaningful military bonuses while practically every other religion in game does.

To touch on the latter first; while the Franciscans might change that for RotW, it still wouldn’t make a difference in Europe; Protestant can give +5% Morale and +2.5% Discipline at the same time, Reformed can give +10% Morale, Sunni can get +10% Morale and Shia +15%, with both able to tack on +20% Manpower, all Buddhists can get +5% Discipline and Vajrayana also tacks on +5% Morale, Shinto gets +10% Morale, Hindu can get +5% Discipline and Siege Ability, Sikh gets +10% Morale and -10% Mil Tech Cost, Tengri gets a rouge’s gallery of choices, Norse gets Forcelimit, and a choice between Discipline or Leader Shock, Inti gets +10% Morale, Mayan gets +10% Infantry Combat Ability, Nahautl can get +10% Morale and 5% Discipline at the same time, Fetishists will have access to +5% Morale and +2.5% Discipline, and Copts will be able to get +2.5% Discipline. Even Orthodox’s Manpower Bonus is better than the +15% Manpower Recovery Speed that Proclaim Holy War gives you.

Thus, it would be best if Proclaim Holy War instead gave +5% Discipline or +10% Morale – I favor the former, as both Franciscans and Reformed have the latter covered. I’d also say that Grant Indulgence for Sins should give Devotion, Unity and Tradition in addition to Legitimacy, but that’s beside the point.

But that’s still just one side to the coin; the other is that Papal Controller is simply OP. Take a look at its bonuses:

+1 Diplomats
+1 Yearly prestige
−10% Stability cost modifier
+2 Possible advisors
−20% Advisor cost
+1 Leader(s) without upkeep
−20% Aggressive expansion impact
−5% Technology cost

Rather than having all these bonuses at once, they should instead be unlocked progressively based on the number of Catholic nations; the more independent Catholics out there, the more bonuses are unlocked. To effectively branch them off into tiers:

+10 Nations:
+1 Possible Advisors
-10% Advisor Cost
+25 Nations:
-5% Technology Cost
-10% Stability Cost Modifier
+1 Leader(s) without Upkeep
+40 Nations:
+1 Diplomats
+1 Yearly Prestige
-10% Aggressive Expansion Impact

This would mean that if you, the Pope and a handful of OPMs were the only Catholics left (either by your own hand of the computer's) you would get squat for monopolizing the Curia; the Pope's authority would be nigh in the age of massive blobs who easily puppet him. Whereas if you make sure that Catholicism still has a strong independent following even in the face of the (hopefully more effective) Reformation, your grip on the Curia won't be guaranteed but inversely it will provide a stronger payoff.

Now, to help further encourage such a mechanic, each time you either voluntarily release one of your Catholic vassals, force another nation to release a Catholic nation, or force a reunion with Rome, you also get a PI bonus comparable to converting a province. Forcing another nation to release the Papal States (not releasing it yourself) will give a much larger PI gain, or a modifier that increases your PI gain for X amount of years, while returning a province to the Papacy will also give a smaller amount. Inversely, you should get half of your vassal's PI gain when they convert a province; so there's still benefit in having vassals.

Ultimately between nerfing Papal Controller and buffing Proclaim Holy War (and possibly Grant Indulgence), it should make Catholicism more competitive without being OP – being the only Catholic nation left would no longer be as profitable as before, and the extra incentive for other nations to stay Catholic would mean that there would be less monopolies on Cardinals, and thus PI - it would also mean that Catholic nations wouldn't be as incentivized to cannibalize each other once the Reformation hits.

Now we come to the penultimate point of this; revising the Kingdom of God. It’s a very questionable decision at best, considering it disables the Curia, and all its associated bonuses for +10% National Manpower, +1 Prestige and +1 Devotion – and ultimately it removes all reason for any remaining Catholic nations to stay Catholic, even those with PI gain in their NI sets, and often leaves you isolated; which kind of goes against the whole point of establishing Papal Primacy.

So, in lieu of a more in depth rework, I will suggest this; the Kingdom of God, in addition to its current requirements, will also require that all Cardinal Seats are filled up and that the Papacy is the Papal Controller. After enacting it, it only disables the College of Cardinals – not the Curia itself, with the PI actions still usable – and like a certain HRE Reform, the Papacy is henceforth permanently the Papal Controller, while all nations that could once get Cardinals now have access to Mendicant Orders. This way enacting the Kingdom of God would be more challenging, but you also wouldn’t shoot yourself in the foot and it would still give incentive for other nations to remain Catholic.

Finally, to touch on another decision in need of a rework (especially because it's associated religion got buffed): Restoring the Pentarchy should not disable the Curia, merely do the opposite of Kingdom of God and disable the Papal Controller until Rome is retaken by Catholics. This way it wouldn't principally wreck the game for them, but still provide some incentives for them to convert with now additional incentives for ones that stay Catholics to push back against the Orthodox. It should also actually give permanent bonuses (and an achievement, at that) instead of large one-time bonuses; otherwise it just comes across as a way to troll Catholics.

All in all, this is my lengthy suggestion for a sorely needed rework/expansion of Catholicism (and some co-religionist mechanics that affect it), and thank you for taking the time to read it.
 
Last edited:
  • 51
  • 8
  • 4
Reactions:

RagingMonkey

Cantankerous Armchair Historian
96 Badges
Aug 27, 2011
360
244
  • Crusader Kings III
  • 500k Club
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • BATTLETECH
  • Cities in Motion
  • Cities in Motion 2
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Magicka
  • Magicka: Wizard Wars Founder Wizard
  • March of the Eagles
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Prison Architect
  • Rome Gold
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44 Deluxe Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Surviving Mars: Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Shadowrun: Hong Kong
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Victoria 2
  • War of the Roses
As a major religion, I agree 100%. Theres quite a few religions that need alot of work. I really like the mendicant orders the best.
 
  • 3
Reactions:

Franz Limit

Second Lieutenant
67 Badges
Oct 11, 2015
168
223
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Age of Wonders: Shadow Magic
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Cities: Skylines
  • War of the Roses
I don't think that -1 tollerance for heretics in the baseline is completely arbitrary but it is true that a lot more religions would need the same negative modifier to justify this. Especially since everyone else has only positive modifiers. An alternative positive modifier which comes to mind is legimacy/republic tradition. The whole monarchy-system was kind of based on god and the pope. Especially with the next expansion rolling in, the development buff would of course be way stronger than a legimacy buff but I am just saying that legimacy would be a fitting as well.

About the counter-reformation: I simply can't aggree that a tech-cost reduction would be fitting. It wasn't about educating priests and spreading technology. It was about eredacating the heretics and strenghtening the church. The whole counter-reformation is the opposite of educating people. I have to add: I am not trying to bash catholics here, the reformation and the counter-reformation did some bad things. -> I am not saying that the catholics were the super bad guys but they still didn't do the counter-reformation to educate Europe.

About the rest of the ideas in this thread: I can't say much about it besides the fact that I love them. It would be way better to be able to play a historical Mexico or Brazil in terms of religion without being punished for being catholic. Being catholic is really useless outside of Europe in Eu4
 
  • 5
  • 2
  • 1
Reactions:

Grand Historian

Pretentious Username
73 Badges
May 13, 2014
5.200
9.085
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Tyranny - Tales from the Tiers
  • Tyranny - Bastards Wound
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Premium edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall - Revelations
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Season pass
  • Victoria 2
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Deluxe edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Darkest Hour
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
As a major religion, I agree 100%. Theres quite a few religions that need alot of work. I really like the mendicant orders the best.
Thank you!

About the counter-reformation: I simply can't aggree that a tech-cost reduction would be fitting. It wasn't about educating priests and spreading technology. It was about eredacating the heretics and strenghtening the church. The whole counter-reformation is the opposite of educating people. I have to add: I am not trying to bash catholics here, the reformation and the counter-reformation did some bad things. -> I am not saying that the catholics were the super bad guys but they still didn't do the counter-reformation to educate Europe.
Can you prove that the Counter-Reformation wasn't about cleaning up the Church and making sure Priests were well-educated and qualified? Yes, it was a response to Protestantism. But it wasn't them running around burning everyone they could find at the stake - it was to give reasoned defenses and explanations of their doctrines, and try to reconcile people with the Church. And while you are right in that the immediate goal of the Counter-Reformation had nothing to do with spreading technology, it did have quite a bit to do with education, and the fact remains that having a large pool of well-educated priests running around will undeniably result in some technological advancements.
 
  • 5
  • 3
  • 2
Reactions:

Otto of england

Never Forget Java
74 Badges
Dec 25, 2011
3.097
381
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Steel Division: Normand 44 - Second Wave
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • 500k Club
No the main point of the counter reformation was to reform the church to combat the reformation. One of the principal ways this was done was by putting much higher restrictions on becoming a priest, bishop etc. These restrictons being in the form of higher education requirements, and other thing that's slipping my mind at the moment.

While the counter reformation saw the creation of the inquisition, hardly anyone was actually executed, some estimates as high as only 1 per year (~150 total or so). With most of the persecuted people being priests, bishops etc in the Catholic church. Most of the inquisition was to stop people from spreading protestant or violating catholic doctrine.


Though on another note, I think -1 tolerance to heretics is fine as long as it only applies to reformed and reformed gets any complementary modifer to catholics. Seriously calvinist doctrine considers most catholic doctrine as essentially evil.
On a side note, why does reformed have hereticle tolerance? They were the least tolerant sect of Christianity, wtf.
 
  • 7
Reactions:

Grand Historian

Pretentious Username
73 Badges
May 13, 2014
5.200
9.085
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Tyranny - Tales from the Tiers
  • Tyranny - Bastards Wound
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Premium edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall - Revelations
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Season pass
  • Victoria 2
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Deluxe edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Darkest Hour
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
Though on another note, I think -1 tolerance to heretics is fine as long as it only applies to reformed and reformed gets any complementary modifer to catholics. Seriously calvinist doctrine considers most catholic doctrine as essentially evil.
On a side note, why does reformed have hereticle tolerance? They were the least tolerant sect of Christianity, wtf.
As a Baptist myself I can most certainly verify there's quite a bit of dislike of Catholic doctrines in Reformed branches, but I believe the Heretic Tolerance is to represent the fact that most nations that qualify as Reformed during this period - Netherlands, Switzerland, USA, Transylvania - while most certainly had a great deal of intolerance individually, usually made attempts to keep it out of the government.
 
  • 3
Reactions:

Otto of england

Never Forget Java
74 Badges
Dec 25, 2011
3.097
381
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Steel Division: Normand 44 - Second Wave
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • 500k Club
As a Baptist myself I can most certainly verify there's quite a bit of dislike of Catholic doctrines in Reformed branches, but I believe the Heretic Tolerance is to represent the fact that most nations that qualify as Reformed during this period - Netherlands, Switzerland, USA, Transylvania - while most certainly had a great deal of intolerance individually, usually made attempts to keep it out of the government.
That brings up a good point, which is also rather ironic, considering the sect with the least doctrinal tolerance created fairly tolerant states. However I think that is better represented as a decision reformed countries can take that increases heretic tolerance at the cost of a mild increase to stability cost.
 
  • 1
Reactions:

Bluend

Recruit
Aug 25, 2014
1
1
I would say the counter-reformation keeps the -5% tech cost but keeps the +5% idea cost. Essentially being that it educated better with better prepared bishops and such, but still disregarded ideas thanks to inquisition and similar. Would leave something to think better (-5% tech cost is great, but +5% idea cost is thinkable, a good counter-balance).
 
  • 1
Reactions:

Grand Historian

Pretentious Username
73 Badges
May 13, 2014
5.200
9.085
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Tyranny - Tales from the Tiers
  • Tyranny - Bastards Wound
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Premium edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall - Revelations
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Season pass
  • Victoria 2
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Deluxe edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Darkest Hour
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
I would say the counter-reformation keeps the -5% tech cost but keeps the +5% idea cost. Essentially being that it educated better with better prepared bishops and such, but still disregarded ideas thanks to inquisition and similar. Would leave something to think better (-5% tech cost is great, but +5% idea cost is thinkable, a good counter-balance).
That's a fair point. I'd be willing to take it if it meant that a Tech Discount got in.
 
  • 2
Reactions:

Grand Historian

Pretentious Username
73 Badges
May 13, 2014
5.200
9.085
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Tyranny - Tales from the Tiers
  • Tyranny - Bastards Wound
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Premium edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall - Revelations
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Season pass
  • Victoria 2
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Deluxe edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Darkest Hour
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
So, with now that Defender of the Faith also gives +10 Relations with other nations of your denomination, perhaps now would also be the time to get rid of the Tech Cost malus it gives as well?
 

Grand Historian

Pretentious Username
73 Badges
May 13, 2014
5.200
9.085
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Tyranny - Tales from the Tiers
  • Tyranny - Bastards Wound
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Premium edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall - Revelations
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Season pass
  • Victoria 2
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Deluxe edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Darkest Hour
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
Updated the Papal Controller section with some new ideas, graciously borrowed from @Incompetent and @cub298.
 
  • 1
Reactions:

cub298

Colonel
57 Badges
Apr 2, 2016
1.057
341
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
Updated the Papal Controller section with some new ideas, graciously borrowed from @Incompetent and @cub298.
I do like the modifiers now on how the number of countries affects bonuses you can get. With the many nations it promotes you to attack and conquer the other Catholics. With a medium amount of nations, you will get some military bonuses, which may help you beat out some Protestants by then. With the low amount Catholicism is in dire straits and is close to being gone giving you some petty bonuses.
 

Grand Historian

Pretentious Username
73 Badges
May 13, 2014
5.200
9.085
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Tyranny - Tales from the Tiers
  • Tyranny - Bastards Wound
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Premium edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall - Revelations
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Season pass
  • Victoria 2
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Deluxe edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Darkest Hour
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
I do like the modifiers now on how the number of countries affects bonuses you can get. With the many nations it promotes you to attack and conquer the other Catholics. With a medium amount of nations, you will get some military bonuses, which may help you beat out some Protestants by then. With the low amount Catholicism is in dire straits and is close to being gone giving you some petty bonuses.
I'm afraid you might have read them wrong (my bad if I'm misunderstanding you); you unlock the bonuses progressively. So at 10 or more independent Catholic nations in the world, you only get advisor benefits, 25 or more you get tech, stab and leader in addition to the advisors, and so on. So ultimately it's a trade-off; less Catholic nations means you have a stronger chance of controlling a weaker curia, but more means your control of a stronger Curia isn't as guaranteed.
 
  • 1
Reactions:

cub298

Colonel
57 Badges
Apr 2, 2016
1.057
341
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
I understand it. But at same time it would end up promoting what I had said, while giving you a more monopoly on the curia when less nations are around.
 

Grand Historian

Pretentious Username
73 Badges
May 13, 2014
5.200
9.085
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Tyranny - Tales from the Tiers
  • Tyranny - Bastards Wound
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Premium edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall - Revelations
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Season pass
  • Victoria 2
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Deluxe edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Darkest Hour
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
I understand it. But at same time it would end up promoting what I had said, while giving you a more monopoly on the curia when less nations are around.
Ah. My bad, then. And yes, I certainly agree.

some nice ideas. about orders:

maybe on Pope death?
That could work too. And thank you!
 

RedSpectre

Sergeant
42 Badges
Jun 12, 2016
50
85
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Sengoku
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
Could I also make some suggestions?

What I've always wanted to see is perhaps allowing a country to release a monastic order for the cost of a certain amount of prestige and money. There's presicence for this plenty of states had large church estates and some of these were small states. Each country would only be allowed to have one order and it would only be allowed to have one province. It wouldn't cost a diplomatic relation but it wouldn't come to your aid in wars although you would have to guarantee it. And unlike a vassal you couldn't receive any forcelimit, trade or monetary boost from it. Instead having a monastery would give you an annual +1 for papal influence and perhap would get you a cardinal and would give you certain vassal interactions which could be beneficial

For example you could donate money to an order every half decade or so to get 10 papal influence. But you could also spent a certain amount of papal influence to tax your monastery order although levying taxes on your monks would reduce relations with the papacy, perhaps to the point of getting you excommunicated! And perhaps you could force your order to help you divorce your wife which would also have a relation penalty with the pope and cause papal influence. Having excommunication happen due to poorly treating the church was historic and would make using that causi belli more interesting.

As incentive to protect these orders the pope can get a small prestige bonus and devotion bonus per order along side getting tax money from them (which could be balanced out by giving the papacy its own government form with its own flavor)

If you convert to a protestant denomination then your relationship with your order can cease and you can either choose to annex it or allow it to co-exist as an independent principality. Annexing it would give you a prestige hit, perhaps some unrest with Catholics and diplo rep hit along with a relations hit with other catholics and the pope.


Holy Roman Empire Features
Also I'd love this to interact with the HRE. Members of the HRE shouldn't be allowed to release orders except for the emperor if there aren't enough bishops but one can interact with orders in the hre to get their bonuses

Perhaps it could be somewhat like free cities in the sense that the holy roman emperor will be tasked with protecting bishoprics within the HRE and for each one that exists he can levy religious tax and have a relations hit with both the catholic electors and the papacy, and as long as the bishoprics have a positive relationship with the emperor they can grant him +1 or +.5 annual papal influence (def not cardinals that'd be op, maybe the emperor can get one or two additional cardinals if he maintains a certain amount of bishoprics)

If a bishopric is an elector and votes for another emperor than that candidate can get the papal influence bonus. Also if a bishopric has negative relations with an emperor than which ever elector has the highest relation with that bishop can get the papal influence bonus.

If a bishopric converts to a heretic faith then the emperor should get a causi belli to enforce the correct faith and for every heretic bishop should get -1 or -.5 papal influence annually

If there is a secular religious peace then interactions with bishops should be removed

Other Orthodox Features:

Also perhaps the Orthodox should have something similar. This isn't unprecedented given that even greece today has an autonomous monastery. Since the slider no longer removes tax income it has nothing to balance against becoming more pieous so as a counter measure perhaps one should have to pay the monestary a diplomatic relation fee (similar to vassal fee or other similar fees) based on your piety and you can reduce piety by raiding the coffers of the monastic order or making them legitimize your rule and grant you stability.
 
  • 1
  • 1
  • 1
Reactions:

theJalden

Captain
48 Badges
Dec 7, 2013
349
430
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Magicka
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Surviving Mars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Surviving Mars: Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Cities: Skylines
  • War of the Roses
  • Victoria 2
Wow, I like almost all of these ideas. They seem like they would be fun for basically the full game. But, the number of Independent Catholic doesn't really make sense to me. Perhaps it would be better to base it off of development of Catholic land.

One idea that I've been thinking of is Papal Authority, and seeing if that can tie into the reformation. At the start of the game I'd imagine Papal Authority would be between 50 and 75 percent of it's maximum, being damaged from the Babylonian captivity and the great western schism. Corruption during this time weakened the Church's Authority, such corruption included simony, and the sale of indulgences, and could be modeled by events or decisions. But if a player is smart and controls events well enough he might be able to grow Papal Authority and save the Church from itself.

The Curia being controlled by an outside country could also weaken it's authority. The most notable example would probably be Rodrigo Borgia, played by the fantastic Jeremy Irons in the Showtime TV Series the Borgias. Rodrigo Borgia, or Pope Alexander VI was a Spanish Bishop, notable for having recognized children, and granting them power positions in the Church. As a side note, he brokered the Treaty of Tordesillas, so it might be cool if having Curia Control was a constraint on having that Treaty be enacted in game. It could serve as a neat mechanic to have the benefits of being curia controller scale with a new variable called Papal Authority. And it would have a built-in negative feedback if the curia was controlled for too long by some power other than the Papacy.

And maybe the reformation should be triggered by Reform Desire getting higher than Papal Authority. Just a thought.

It would also be great if the Printing Press institution didn't explicitly favor Protestants, and maybe showed up at it's historic time. I really don't know what paradox was thinking with that one.
 
  • 1
Reactions:

Zak Preston

Zakharia
71 Badges
Aug 16, 2014
1.639
2.004
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Europa Universalis III: Collection
  • Victoria 2
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Imperator: Rome
  • War of the Roses
Wow, that's an extremely solid proposal!
Staying Catholic in SP is debatable, since AI won't be a threat at some point, but in MP everyone rushes for Protestant\Reformed in order to get morale\disc bonuses. Downside is that religious leagues become a joke, so does religious diversity =)
 

Grand Historian

Pretentious Username
73 Badges
May 13, 2014
5.200
9.085
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Tyranny - Tales from the Tiers
  • Tyranny - Bastards Wound
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Premium edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall - Revelations
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Season pass
  • Victoria 2
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Deluxe edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Darkest Hour
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
Wow, I like almost all of these ideas. They seem like they would be fun for basically the full game. But, the number of Independent Catholic doesn't really make sense to me. Perhaps it would be better to base it off of development of Catholic land.
Thank you! And I suppose either independent nations or development could work, provided the later takes something into account for vassal land to avoid exploits.

One idea that I've been thinking of is Papal Authority, and seeing if that can tie into the reformation. At the start of the game I'd imagine Papal Authority would be between 50 and 75 percent of it's maximum, being damaged from the Babylonian captivity and the great western schism. Corruption during this time weakened the Church's Authority, such corruption included simony, and the sale of indulgences, and could be modeled by events or decisions. But if a player is smart and controls events well enough he might be able to grow Papal Authority and save the Church from itself.

The Curia being controlled by an outside country could also weaken it's authority. The most notable example would probably be Rodrigo Borgia, played by the fantastic Jeremy Irons in the Showtime TV Series the Borgias. Rodrigo Borgia, or Pope Alexander VI was a Spanish Bishop, notable for having recognized children, and granting them power positions in the Church. As a side note, he brokered the Treaty of Tordesillas, so it might be cool if having Curia Control was a constraint on having that Treaty be enacted in game. It could serve as a neat mechanic to have the benefits of being curia controller scale with a new variable called Papal Authority. And it would have a built-in negative feedback if the curia was controlled for too long by some power other than the Papacy.

And maybe the reformation should be triggered by Reform Desire getting higher than Papal Authority. Just a thought.

It would also be great if the Printing Press institution didn't explicitly favor Protestants, and maybe showed up at it's historic time. I really don't know what paradox was thinking with that one.
This is a really interesting idea - I'll try to give it a little more thought to come up with something else, if that's alright with you.

Wow, that's an extremely solid proposal!
Staying Catholic in SP is debatable, since AI won't be a threat at some point, but in MP everyone rushes for Protestant\Reformed in order to get morale\disc bonuses. Downside is that religious leagues become a joke, so does religious diversity =)
Thank you!
 
  • 1
Reactions: