Rework on Historical Mode? (Developers Please Respond)

[Mindfield]

The game is not about recreation of history but to explore "What-If" scenarios.

Example:
What if I develope as soon as possible a jet-fighter, will the allies nuke Berlin instead of Hiroshima?
What if I never meet a superior medium tank, will there be a Panther?
What if Britain and France dont follow an appeasement policy, how would germany react?

The game allows you to explore such scenarios.

What some people want, it seems, is, that you alone may do things different, but the rest of the world should be stupid and dont react to your doings.
If you set the rules to "historic" it counts only for the rest of the world, but not for the player.
You want to break a scripted scenario.

But instead the game tries to react to the player in a certain way the game rules allows it, letting the player think before doing some special things.

This is an incredible achievement.

 

[racingman11]

The main problem here is to make the game fun. Even if HOI4 has an historical setting, they can't let the player use his knowledge of history take the fun out of the game.

To be honest I don't think that an 1936 french DOW would have set in motion a communist revolution. And France really considered declaring war. Problem is : Had France declared war in 1936, there would have been no WWII.

Which is quite a problem for a WWII game. So yeah this communist revolution give no chance to the French. But on the other hand where would be the fun if in multiplayer France would always beat Germany in 1936 ?

 

[MrLabx]

The game is not about recreation of history but to explore "What-If" scenarios.

Example:
What if I develope as soon as possible a jet-fighter, will the allies nuke Berlin instead of Hiroshima?
What if I never meet a superior medium tank, will there be a Panther?
What if Britain and France dont follow an appeasement policy, how would germany react?

The game allows you to explore such scenarios.

What some people want, it seems, is, that you alone may do things different, but the rest of the world should be stupid and dont react to your doings.
If you set the rules to "historic" it counts only for the rest of the world, but not for the player.
You want to break a scripted scenario.

But instead the game tries to react to the player in a certain way the game rules allows it, letting the player think before doing some special things.

This is an incredible achievement.

What if France wouldn't defend Maginot line?
What if D-Day happened in Crimea?
What if Sweden joined in and magically invade half of Russia?
What if Greece reform Byzantium?
What would happened if Italy invaded France while being invaded by UK?
What if Germans were immune to the cold?

 

[a.wenk]

What if France wouldn't defend Maginot line?
What if D-Day happened in Crimea?
What if Sweden joined in and magically invade half of Russia?
What if Greece reform Byzantium?
What if would happened if Italy invaded France while being invaded by UK?
What if Germans were immune to the cold?

the aliens have invaded the earth

 

[Alliegorical]

Didn't the Devs wish to heavily reduce border gore?

If so, they did an awful job. Just go to 2:48 in the video to see what I mean. That is atrocious.

I don't see a problem here. Border gore is pretty much inevitable in this game. Any attempt to curb it is just going to make other things worse.

What if France wouldn't defend Maginot line?

They did.

What if D-Day happened in Crimea?

Given the situation, an invasion in Crimea made perfect sense. The allies controlled the Mediterranean and Baltic seas, and an invasion north from Crimea linked up with Sweden to cut off occupied Russia from the rest of Germany.

What if Sweden joined in and magically invade half of Russia?

The Germans were probably stretched paper-thin. Could work.

What if Greece reform Byzantium?

They didn't. The map still says "Greece".

What would happened if Italy invaded France while being invaded by UK?

They invaded France first, and were then invaded by the UK.

What if Germans were immune to the cold?

They're not.


Are you, like, determined to hate this game? Because each of these complaints are awfully weak.

 

[WeissRaben]

Are you, like, determined to hate this game? Because each of these complaints are awfully weak.

They are... honestly not that weak. Not all of them, at least - I don't see the hate for the Crimean landings, honestly, even though there would have been better places; but watching that video gives a strong feeling the AI isn't defending itself properly. Sweden was deeply committed to neutrality, and unless something like a coup happens it makes no sense for them to join the war. Also, the Maginot Line complaint comes from another video, where the French army ran to defend Paris from French rebels - while the Germans were attacking.

 

[Lifthrasil]

Perhaps people are just voicing their constructive criticisms of the game, so Paradox can make it better? You know as a consumer if you see something you don't like, you shouldn't just bend over and take but actually try to help a company improve their product by recommending changes that you think would better improve it.

On one of the youtube videos of HOI4, here is a special comment that I think it is quite nice:

"you know when i heard paradox was going to make hoi4 less railroaded i didn't expect it to mean "humongous clusterfuck" "~Foranyed, 2016

I think this comment is nice not because it is kind, but because it is accurate. The timelapses have been a "humongous clusterfuck". You can make a game sandboxy without it being a "humongous clusterfuck". That is what many people are asking for, not railroading, but also not a "humongous clusterfuck".

My comment was not about people complaining about the game being "too deralining". This is a perfectly acceptable concern to voice, even though I don't share it.

I merely critized that people complain about podcat saying "take it or leave it". There were several people claiming that podcat's answer was "rude" and that "you can't talk like that to a customer". Basically those people just complain that customer service doesn't wipe the buttox of the customer and then thanks them for the privilege. Adults should be able to deal with a straightforward answer like that without needing psychological therapy.

 

[podcat]

The only way I can explain it in any way that makes remote sense is if we assume that half of all French divisions instantly teleported to Calais to take part in the rebellion.

oh, yeah thats actually what must have happened. a civil war will move some troops around by teleportation, so that could leave holes. we'll take a look at that

To be honest I don't think that an 1936 french DOW would have set in motion a communist revolution. And France really considered declaring war. Problem is : Had France declared war in 1936, there would have been no WWII.

which is exactly why opposing the rheinland causes a civil war. Otherwise its the no-brainer choice which just stomps germany.

 

[seattle]

As of now I am failing to notice any differences at all between the Historical Mode and the Sandbox Mode, and with recent videos depicting a French capitulation in april 1936 and that timelapse video where Japan invaded Finland with all as this I cannot help it but ask for some info from the developers on what are they planning to do or if they are planning to do something.
I think the least they should do is inform us.

Unsurprisingly I have messed up Historical Accuracy with AI decisions, I apologize about that.

That's a bold statement, literally.

 

[TheDerpyBeagle]

These complaints seem to come up at every single game we release.

I remember posting weeks before hoi1 getting released that it was supposed to be a game, not a historical simulation.

I've been in charge of gamedesign since day #1 at paradox, and i dont like oldschool wargames with hexes. I enjoy games like civilization and Starcraft.

That's a good point, but I think the issue here is that instead of finding a balance, you are jumping from one extreme to the other. You have HOI3 which was largely railroaded, and some liked/hated it for that reason. And then you have HOI4 that is basically a free-bound sandbox, even on historical mode, whereas historical mode should have truly been a historically plausible scenario. Things like the USSR winning the Winter War or France stopping Germany in its tracks are things that are plausible. But with what we have with the current historical mode is still very sandboxy with things like the US and Sweden both invading German-controlled USSR and taking it. So I find myself wondering if these kind of things can happen on historical mode, what was the point of having anything labelled 'historical' mode in the first place.

 

[helgur]

Anyone in a professional career knows how to be professional

I've driven my own business within the service industry for nearly 10 years. There's nothing unprofessional or rude by being blunt, when you can't cater to the customers needs, but yet they demand you do. It's actually more professional being honest and blunt if necessary then, instead of giving them false expectations.

And yes, that is honesty.

 

[hewhoispale]

Pure historical mode by definition will be unhistorical because players will not play historical when they know exactly what will happen. For example, why bother building up an army to be able to take over austria/czechs if you know they will just fold every time no matter how weak you are etc..

@podcat Is it possible while in historical mode to get a highlighting on the focus tree of what the next "historical" focus would be? I can't say that I would know off hand what the historical path would be necessarily and I know that I wouldn't mind if the game pointed out to me where the rails are if I wanted to stay on them.

 

[Ricox]

As a HOI 1 and 2 vet, I still prefer the old 90/5/5 event system. It kept things historical while still allowing for interesting variations, but unfortunately (IMO), those days are gone forever.

I'm not against a 100% historical enforcement (I wouldn't use it), so long as there's still a historical mode which allowed some deviation, and also a complete sandbox mode for players who prefer that.

But if the stories of Japanese in Finland on historic setting are true, the mode definitely needs a revamp.

The historical mode only means the AI picks historical focuses. It doesn't affect invasion or other behavior from what I understand.

To prevent Japan from invading Finland there would have to be a heavily railroaded script/system that disallowed the AI from carrying out certain military and other actions. Fair enough for people who really want that, but I personally prefer that the option to just have historical focuses remains and that it doesn't affect the military AI. And then just have a third option that is "true history" or something that really pushes it.

 

[ctb123]

Sometimes, you just have to accept a game for what it is. It's probably much more fun to enjoy what it CAN do rather than wish it were something else. You know, glass half-full rather than glass-half empty.