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MasterBlaster69

Conquistador
Feb 6, 2019
3
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I'm guessing that this is a common question, but when I look at the focus trees from the first few DLC's like TFV and DBD, I can't help but feel that these are extreamly lacking in content. Compared to the new DLC's focus trees (Spain, USSR, Italy etc) the old ones are very lackluster. Playing a game as the Raj or any other minor that got a focus tree in the first few DLC's is just a snoozefest now that I've experienced the new focus trees. So is Paradox planning on reworking these focus trees to add more to them and make them more fun? Would at least be something to consider.
 
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And this flexibility can be fantastic for other country for simulate a coup for save the situation (exemple valkyrie for germany)

For Hungary it would make sense. If you play historically and stay with Horthy, you should be able to make a separate peace of sorts (or even switch sides but turn commie) if the axis is losing. IRL the SS imprisoned Horthy and installed the Arrow Cross party under Ferenc Szálasi as a puppet government when Hungary tried to secretly negotiate with the allies. Would be interesting to have this lategame event with different possible outcomes.

Hungary in general needs a rework, as there's some small oddities (Gyula Gömbös as the fascist demagogue which would make sense if HoI4 started in 1933, the man died in 1936; Ferenc Szálasi would make more sense for the role) and bigger inaccuracies/oversimplifications like Miklós Horthy being considered the fascist leader.

I'm not demanding a change or expecting it, but I'm dreaming of it.
 
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This is actually why they most likely will not do a major (i.e, DLC level) rework of any existing Focus Tree. They have said they don't want to make a DLC that either A) requires a previous paid DLC or B) that makes a previous previous paid DLC obsolete.

A) Tends to piss your customers off "I want the new Germany DLC but don't want to have to buy the old Germany DLC to get it to work)"
B) Both pisses your customers off "Why did I pay for the Germany DLC if it doesn't work with the new Germany DLC" AND potentially results in lost sales. "I'm glad I didn't buy the old Germany DLC because the new one makes it obsolete."
Honestly, some focus trees if not entire dlc already feel obsolete just by being compared to more recent ones.
 
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Realistically I wouldnt expect you guys to change a lot for free. But seeing how the game has developed a few things do need to change imo. Countries have gained more provinces which would mean more factories but also require way way more infrastructure, Canada and Australia are great examples of that.
Also the main thing in TFV was apparently consumer good reductions, but seeing that that also changed over the years, and these minor countries from specially TFV dont really benefit anymore from that, they have to be changed in order to even remotely justify (the price of) these dlcs now...

What point is there f.e. for Canada to do the focus If Day when you are already at max reduction for consumer goods (by the time you can do If day you are long at war) with war economy (and then there is also the focus War Bonds) . Its very short temporary effect of countering the probably already halfly reduced great depression is very minimal and not worth 70 days, but it is mandatory to fully remove it.

Also Raj and Australia have some super weird focuses. Australia has like 3 mandatory focuses to change their conscription laws, these are 3 x 70 days = 210 days for reducing some foreign subversive activities.. I mean come on.....
Raj has 3 railroad focuses in order to avoid the famine, 210 days of railroads when you probably dont even have trains (researched)...

Also the inconsistency of the commonwealth research bonus focuses is something that bothers me.
Why do Australia and Canada have to do 2x 70 days focus for first 3 % and later 5% commonwealth research bonus, when SAF (1x 70 days) and NZL get 10% (2 x 70 days but NZL also gains 100 pp)

Now you guys did take on Canada but there is no excuse now in leaving the other TFV countries to be what they are..

There are more examples of weird focustrees outside of TFV
F.e. Netherlands has some focuses regarding buffs of the Dutch East Indies, like added infrastructure. But these are mostly nullified by the fact that the DEI does their infrastructure focuses very quickly and then these Dutch DEI buffing focuses have no added effects anymore because they dont change province.
And even when not picking the randstad part of their industry, the province of Holland gets saturated with building slots to the point that some factory adding focuses have no effect, let alone if you do pick the randstad path. You are just wasting tens of factories with that one. Maybe have some off-maps?

I think for a lot of these TFV minors they have to get different buffs instead of the consumer good reductions. Commonwealth research focuses should really be 35 days for 5% imo unless they give more buffs (like the NZL one).
Also I thought 'just railroad' focuses were no longer a thing, and they all got buffed? Surely Raj and Australia missed that one.
 
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I'm a sucker for stupid memes like Napoleonic France and Greece restoring Byzantium. As long as they are totally optional and challenging. You could say they give away too many free cores and such, but to me it's more thrilling than historical Greece, or a more reasonable restoration of French monarchy. If I am playing these nations at all, why not go to the extreme.

Is it to detriment of a grounded WW2 game? Probably. I bet their marketing research bears out though, it's what people on youtube etc. want to see.

My prediction now is we will get reworks of Japan and maybe the Commonwealth soon anyway. Could be Germany itself as well. I hope in that case they retain my favorite meme path, Kaiserin Viktoria Luise, haha.
 
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Yeah, meme games are fun and good for some hilarious screenshots...for once. The game is kept alive by USSR, Reich, USA, Japan, UK, France, China and Italy, not Finland, Denmark, Romania, Switzerland, Peru, South Afrika or other minors.
It is where metas being developed,it is where major wars happen,it is where majority of players PLAY. Week after week, that gives us the most successfull Paradox titles with the most concurrent players.
 
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Yeah, meme games are fun and good for some hilarious screenshots...for once. The game is kept alive by USSR, Reich, USA, Japan, UK, France, China and Italy, not Finland, Denmark, Romania, Switzerland, Peru, South Afrika or other minors.
Playing a minor nation isn't necessarily equal to playing a meme game, so adding unique content for minors goes beyond that, too.
 
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Yeah, meme games are fun and good for some hilarious screenshots...for once. The game is kept alive by USSR, Reich, USA, Japan, UK, France, China and Italy, not Finland, Denmark, Romania, Switzerland, Peru, South Afrika or other minors.
It is where metas being developed,it is where major wars happen,it is where majority of players PLAY. Week after week, that gives us the most successfull Paradox titles with the most concurrent players.
Finland and Romania were arguably a far more important part of World War II than France ever was post 1940.
 
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Finland and Romania were arguably a far more important part of World War II than France ever was post 1940.
They were negligable compared to literally any major outside France, compared to local auxillaries to Wehrmacht. And they were used as such - to allow Wehrmacht to free more soldiers for assault actions while minors held front or were used as a police force.
 
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Yeah, meme games are fun and good for some hilarious screenshots...for once. The game is kept alive by USSR, Reich, USA, Japan, UK, France, China and Italy, not Finland, Denmark, Romania, Switzerland, Peru, South Afrika or other minors.
It is where metas being developed,it is where major wars happen,it is where majority of players PLAY. Week after week, that gives us the most successfull Paradox titles with the most concurrent players.
I usually shy away from playing major tags. They’re tedious and not really challenging. HoI4 seems to be an exception though as here it’s the minor tags that are boring as hell and the majors are the ones that provide an actual feeling of playing a WW2 game. This doesn’t mean that minor nations historically didn’t have a significant impact on WW2, it’s just that they’re providing a very limited experience.
 
I usually shy away from playing major tags. They’re tedious and not really challenging. HoI4 seems to be an exception though as here it’s the minor tags that are boring as hell and the majors are the ones that provide an actual feeling of playing a WW2 game. This doesn’t mean that minor nations historically didn’t have a significant impact on WW2, it’s just that they’re providing a very limited experience.
I have made this point previously, but I believe some of the "underwhelmingness" of the minors is that they are mostly variations around the same theme (choose ideology, gain sufficient industry/resources/manpower, get goals and/or cores on your neighbours and become a local major power) with differing level of localization, where most of the effort goes into developing these induvidual focus trees. I would argue that part of what makes minors so interesting is in how they were influenced by and interacted with the majors in ways that could potentially alter the course of the war. Modelling this would however probably require significant work on the majors as well, and possibly new game mechanics, which is beyond the rather limited scope of "country packs" and "non major"-DLCs. Also, it is probably cheaper and less risky to let less experienced developers loose on a minor, detached from the major focus trees and core game mechanics.
 
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I only just realised yesterday whilst going for Wojtek that any Poland game where you don't join the axis, or capitulate, breaks Germany's focus for Weserübung, since it (bizarrely?) requires them to hold or be in faction with controller of Warsaw.

Given you can get Germany to leave Poland alone forever just by giving them Danzig through the event, the requirements of weserübung definitely need reworking. The tree should not break that easily.

Side note, Romanov's "demand Pomerania" resulting in Germany giving Poland the entire of East Germany is hilarious, especially when they always seem to accept it.
 
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England no longer has the best research bonus...England has a 70 day focus that provides a permanent +7% research bonus.

1712114466506.png

(I might be incorrect to state that England's +7% permanent buff was the game's best research buff. Did another nation have a better bonus?)



After 1938, Uruguay can get a permanent +8% research bonus (among other bonuses) for completing a 35 day focus:

1712114521682.png


The game's focus trees are evolving.
 
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England no longer has the best research bonus...England has a 70 day focus that provides a permanent +7% research bonus.

View attachment 1109965
(I might be incorrect to state that England's +7% permanent buff was the game's best research buff. Did another nation have a better bonus?)



After 1938, Uruguay can get a permanent +8% research bonus (among other bonuses) for completing a 35 day focus:

View attachment 1109967

The game's focus trees are evolving.
Doesn't make that much of a difference when U.K has 6x the factories Uruaguay does, the Royal Navy, Airforce, an army hundreds of thousands strong, let Uruguay have some nice buffs to make up for the fact of how weak they are
 
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Doesn't make that much of a difference when U.K has 6x the factories Uruaguay does, the Royal Navy, Airforce, an army hundreds of thousands strong, let Uruguay have some nice buffs to make up for the fact of how weak they are
That is the exact kind of thinking that brought us to where we currently stand. Here, take a look, all permanent buffs of the Great Power Germany...

hoi4_buffs_germany.png


... vs cute little Finland. But no, let them have some nice buffs, to make up for the fact how weak they are!

hoi4_buffs_finland.png


Sorry, but no, this is absurd to an outrageous degree. The game has become seriously unbalanced, when later focus trees get research slots, bonuses and buffs like candy.

There is no common line here, nothing that puts all the buffs and penalties of all the nations across all the DLCs into perspective and keeps them balanced. Each expansion tries to top the previous expansion, and after several years we're at a point where the amount of stuff small nations get makes no sense anymore.

I understand that they try to make those nations competitive and interesting to play, but surely the solution can't be to do so at the expense of other nations?
 
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That is the exact kind of thinking that brought us to where we currently stand. Here, take a look, all permanent buffs of the Great Power Germany...

View attachment 1110268

... vs cute little Finland. But no, let them have some nice buffs, to make up for the fact how weak they are!

View attachment 1110269

Sorry, but no, this is absurd to an outrageous degree. The game has become seriously unbalanced, when later focus trees get research slots, bonuses and buffs like candy.

There is no common line here, nothing that puts all the buffs and penalties of all the nations across all the DLCs into perspective and keeps them balanced. Each expansion tries to top the previous expansion, and after several years we're at a point where the amount of stuff small nations get makes no sense anymore.

I understand that they try to make those nations competitive and interesting to play, but surely the solution can't be to do so at the expense of other nations?
I speak of the 8% research speed for Uruguay and you bring a completely different country into the equation... what's wrong with you?

How can you take my quote of about a small bonus for a minor nation and then immediately assume that I am fine with Finland in its current state? Because I'm not.
 
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I speak of the 8% research speed for Uruguay and you bring a completely different country into the equation... what's wrong with you?
The original post was about the UK having a 70 day focus, which grants a 7% research speed bonus. And then put against Uruguay (of all the possible nations), with a 35 day focus that grants a flat 8% research bonus.

I quoted you, because the quoted sentence was a good opportunity to make my point, namely that small nations get ridiculous buffs, just because they're so small and weak that it seemingly doesn't matter. With each new expansion, the old nations are left more and more in the dust, while small and historically irrelevant nations drown in bonuses.

It's not just Uruguay and its research buff. It's absurd enough that Uruguay should get a bigger flat reserach bonus than a great power with a colonial empire attached. I put up Finland as one single example of many.

My main point is, that with each and every expansion, buffs are being handed out to everyone and everything, without regard for the overall balance, without regard to make that stuff believable. And they get away with it, because the nations are so small that it doesn't matter. That's why we have New Zealand with 6 research slots, just like the USA.

New Zealand has the same research capacity as the superpower USA! Uruguay can mobilize a bigger and faster boost to its research output than the great colonial power of the United Kingdom! And didn't someone show at some point that it is possible to reach nuclear weapons with Bhutan by 1944? Small nations, even without buffs, are in a way overtuned. The ridiculous buffs don't help here to build a believable world.

Anyway, I quoted you, because what you said is likely the reason why those buffs are being given out so generously: "let them have some nice buffs, because they're so weak anyway, what does it matter?" or something along those lines.

If you didn't notice, I didn't hit disagree with your post, because I didn't assume anything about you at all. It has nothing to do with you, I just made my point, because you reacted to the comparison of Uruguay's 35d/8% focus vs UK's 70d/7% with "let them have it, they're so small anyway". That made me post what I held back in me for quite a while now.

Nothing more and nothing less, it wasn't personal at all. And I'd prefer it if we kept it that way.
 
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The original post was about the UK having a 70 day focus, which grants a 7% research speed bonus. And then put against Uruguay (of all the possible nations), with a 35 day focus that grants a flat 8% research bonus.

I quoted you, because the quoted sentence was a good opportunity to make my point, namely that small nations get ridiculous buffs, just because they're so small and weak that it seemingly doesn't matter. With each new expansion, the old nations are left more and more in the dust, while small and historically irrelevant nations drown in bonuses.

It's not just Uruguay and its research buff. It's absurd enough that Uruguay should get a bigger flat reserach bonus than a great power with a colonial empire attached. I put up Finland as one single example of many.

My main point is, that with each and every expansion, buffs are being handed out to everyone and everything, without regard for the overall balance, without regard to make that stuff believable. And they get away with it, because the nations are so small that it doesn't matter. That's why we have New Zealand with 6 research slots, just like the USA.

New Zealand has the same research capacity as the superpower USA! Uruguay can mobilize a bigger and faster boost to its research output than the great colonial power of the United Kingdom! And didn't someone show at some point that it is possible to reach nuclear weapons with Bhutan by 1944? Small nations, even without buffs, are in a way overtuned. The ridiculous buffs don't help here to build a believable world.

Anyway, I quoted you, because what you said is likely the reason why those buffs are being given out so generously: "let them have some nice buffs, because they're so weak anyway, what does it matter?" or something along those lines.

If you didn't notice, I didn't hit disagree with your post, because I didn't assume anything about you at all. It has nothing to do with you, I just made my point, because you reacted to the comparison of Uruguay's 35d/8% focus vs UK's 70d/7% with "let them have it, they're so small anyway". That made me post what I held back in me for quite a while now.

Nothing more and nothing less, it wasn't personal at all. And I'd prefer it if we kept it that way.
First off
The effective rate that the UK can research at is way higher because the start of with more slots, and will have more slots for the majority of the game.

One slot at the start of the game is worth several times more than a slot gained in 1941. They are not comparable but for some reason people argue as if they are 1-1. They are not.

Same with the research bonus, the UK gets their measly 7% way quicker than Uruguay. It is also more easily available. Context matters. In addition majors get a massive head-start in what research they start unlocked with, further increasing the disparities. The Uruguay bonus should also be noted that it is located in the historical path which for minors tend to be the weaker. Again context matters.

Then we have Finland. The navy spirit is mostly useless gone because realistically you are not going to use it a whole lot. And sure you have some pretty good bonuses, but this is a fully upgraded spirit. You do not get it out of the gate. You also have a pretty limited manpower pool to apply that spirit to.

Not all of those modifiers are that super strong either, and some are undoubtedly, but if 5-6 of those are going the heavy lifting, and there's a total of 20, your brain will just see "green number massive boost". Again context of what they do matter.

Comparing purely spirits of Germany Vs Finland disregards the little fact that Germany gets to eat central Europe through its focus tree, which wouldn't come up from a "spirit Vs spirit" comparison.

7% across 5 slots is more than 8% across 3 for example. And unlocking the last new Zealand slot is so late that you probably researched everything. It is also the oldest DLC so I don't think that is a good example of power creep

These discussions are also trying to find symmetry within an unsymmetrical game. It simply will not happen. Just because X nation gets Y and Z nation is %weaker now does not mean that we will go back and instantly update it.

If Germany got a new tree now it would undoubtedly look more like an Italy tree or a Soviet tree because content is not the same as 8 years ago.

Now I don't disagree, there has been power creep, absolutely and it is an issue. But discussions about 4 or 5 slots in 1942 distracts from more important balance discussions.

Most important of all when there's 15 modifiers stacked I think there's a visibility issue because the brain (mine at least) just jumbles them together into "green good" but it's hard to make sense of any of them.

The same happens when too many spirits are active. Something that I also an guilty of. Most of what I see though is when strong modifiers stack on top of each other, and if a lot of them does so. Going back and nerfing stuff after is also hard because if there's a lot of modifiers active it becomes hard to know exactly which one to drag down.

So yeah I do agree that powecreep is real, and it's an issue, but also that context for stuff is important to have any form of discussion. The endless research slot discussions is a distraction and it's becoming tiring.

(I realize that the text might at times sound particularly harsh, but it's not necessarily against you, but it's more of a general statement for something I've seen been brought up several times as of late. No offense intended)
 
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