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revision of Russian civil war borders....

map1919Russia.jpg


blue bit is Odessa, which should be French occupied, but an event gives it to Ukraine within a few months of 1919.
the red M, shows Makhno's nation
I decied to use a map that showed the frontlines at around 1918-19, so its around the right time.
The Ussr should own most of western russia except for the Crimea and Caucasus and North, but they should only occupy the parts i have shown.
Most of the east should be White (Rus) controlled.
I used a map from a book i have on Ukrainian armies 1914-53 to show the Ukraine at the time.

Europe..is fine...all is good. Germany still holds onto Alsace -Lorriane etc etc and doesn't lose it till Versialles.
I shall try and sort out China with the new tags etc...
 
asia.jpg


here is China, with the new tags that were so nicely added.
Obviously Fengtien preceeds Manchukuo who appears in 1931, KMT is Chiang Kai Shek etc, Shanxi is Yen Hsi-san's nation, Yunnan, Guangxi, Xinjiang etc show the lesser warlords etc.
Also, we should add Kuominchun, who spring up in around 1929, and who was led by Feng Yu-Xiang, who revolted against the Zihli clique during the Northern Expedition.
 
Will this mod have it's starting date, or will it be set back to 1914? Personally I would prefer a 1914 start rather then a 1919 start. Of course modelling the Great War will be difficult, but it's not impossible, if you decide to start in 1914, I might be able to help you guys out.
 
Wannabe Tatar said:
Will this mod have it's starting date, or will it be set back to 1914? Personally I would prefer a 1914 start rather then a 1919 start. Of course modelling the Great War will be difficult, but it's not impossible, if you decide to start in 1914, I might be able to help you guys out.
Click to expand...
Well, I think the 1919 scenario is a fine scenario in itself, but I also think it should be entirely compatible with a WWI scenario. In fact, if you look at the events I scripted for the earlier version of this game, you will notice I included some flags and trigger conditions in certain events to make sure that the events would fit in with a 1914 mod that uses the same flags. :)

And I am definately willing to do some work to make this second WWI scenario work as soon as possible.
 
Strategist said:
Well, I think the 1919 scenario is a fine scenario in itself, but I also think it should be entirely compatible with a WWI scenario. In fact, if you look at the events I scripted for the earlier version of this game, you will notice I included some flags and trigger conditions in certain events to make sure that the events would fit in with a 1914 mod that uses the same flags. :)

And I am definately willing to do some work to make this second WWI scenario work as soon as possible.
Click to expand...

After I did a handsoff test game of the 1914 scenario, I found that the AI still behaves the same. So I decided to dig up my old mod, and make some chances to it. IMO now the war goes more historical, except a few things (Eastern Front), but in general the Brest-Litovsk treaty fires in 1917 and the Versailles treaty fired in 1918, with some modifying of the triggers.

There are still a few things to be fixed, like Austria is very agressive in the beginning, and the Ottomans are a push over, to both the Russians and the British.

If you're interested I can combine our efforts, and if you want I can sent you my work so far. It's just some AI modding and a few start up changes.
 
Wannabe Tatar said:
After I did a handsoff test game of the 1914 scenario, I found that the AI still behaves the same. So I decided to dig up my old mod, and make some chances to it. IMO now the war goes more historical, except a few things (Eastern Front), but in general the Brest-Litovsk treaty fires in 1917 and the Versailles treaty fired in 1918, with some modifying of the triggers.

There are still a few things to be fixed, like Austria is very agressive in the beginning, and the Ottomans are a push over, to both the Russians and the British.

If you're interested I can combine our efforts, and if you want I can sent you my work so far. It's just some AI modding and a few start up changes.
Click to expand...
I have used your WWI mod before, and did suggest some things for it when you made it as well, so I am familiar with it. But I did spend my last 2 months reading some WWI liturature, and I came to the conclusion that some armies are way too small in the 1914 scenario. So some of that should be modified. :)
 
Strategist said:
I have used your WWI mod before, and did suggest some things for it when you made it as well, so I am familiar with it. But I did spend my last 2 months reading some WWI liturature, and I came to the conclusion that some armies are way too small in the 1914 scenario. So some of that should be modified. :)
Click to expand...

Yeah I remember you making suggestions, and IIRC I mentioned that the current army sizes were too small, but a lot has changed since that last version. I actually created a static Western Front! Plus the British seem a bit more generous with troops now, although still not the historical levels.

Which armies are too small? Don't forget about game balance, I already had to decrease the Russian mobilization from 100 to 75 divisions and the Ottoman had an increase from 10 to 50. So if the Russians have to few, then we might consider just giving them irregulars or not at all, since it would cause the Russians to be more powerful as they were.
 
Wannabe Tatar said:
Yeah I remember you making suggestions, and IIRC I mentioned that the current army sizes were too small, but a lot has changed since that last version. I actually created a static Western Front! Plus the British seem a bit more generous with troops now, although still not the historical levels.

Which armies are too small? Don't forget about game balance, I already had to decrease the Russian mobilization from 100 to 75 divisions and the Ottoman had an increase from 10 to 50. So if the Russians have to few, then we might consider just giving them irregulars or not at all, since it would cause the Russians to be more powerful as they were.
Click to expand...
Hehe. Actually, the German army is a bit underpowered, and should also have 500K reserve troops (Thats another 50 divisions!) coming up something like 3 months after the start of the scenario. (These divisions were historically used to stabilise the eastern front, and to start the following German offensives in the east).

Added to that, the Serbian, Burgarian, and Romanian armies are way too small. The French and Austrian armies houls be tweaked as well, and the Russians should get some more as well, but they will need that against a stronger Germany (they should also focus their armies on Austria, so the Ottomans shouldnt get too much troops thrown on them, but thats an AI issue.)
 
Strategist said:
Hehe. Actually, the German army is a bit underpowered, and should also have 500K reserve troops (Thats another 50 divisions!) coming up something like 3 months after the start of the scenario. (These divisions were historically used to stabilise the eastern front, and to start the following German offensives in the east).

Added to that, the Serbian, Burgarian, and Romanian armies are way too small. The French and Austrian armies houls be tweaked as well, and the Russians should get some more as well, but they will need that against a stronger Germany (they should also focus their armies on Austria, so the Ottomans shouldnt get too much troops thrown on them, but thats an AI issue.)
Click to expand...

Germany already has a mobilization pool of 58, and the drawback is that if we add 50 divs to the mob pool, there is no guarantee that they will be employed on the eastern front. Perhaps a few events, triggered by the loss of German territory, adding the divisions somewhere in the east is a better solution?

The balkans are certainly to small, but I doubt increasing Serbia is really necessary, the Austrians already have enough problems with them as it is (level 4 forts in mountainous terrain) The French need strengthening if the Germans get more troops. The Austrians, IMO, should depend on the performances. They usually get a lot of troops from Germany.
 
You find most historic events related to the Poland in that period nad Bolshevik-Polish war in here:
http://wers.eufi.org/
The mod covers the timespan between January 1919 (Bolshevik capture of Minsk and Kiev) and January 1921. Apart from the most obvious nations (you guessed it, Poland and the Reds), the mod features plenty of other states and factions: Greater Poland, Ukrainian National Republic, Western Ukrainian Republic, Belarussian National Republic, the Whites of Denikin, even the German garrisons in the East and the anarchist state of Makhno.


It is for HoI2 but I am sure you would find the list of events and their effects helpfull for converting.
 
well...i can start working on the new borders for the start of the 1919 scenario...as through lots of research i have found the current Russian/USSR borders etc are significantly vague and in some points wrong....also, i would recomend perhaps making 2 White factions, the western and southern regimes of wrange, Denikin etc and the eastern siberian one of Kolchak, the southern faction can stay as RUS, but we should give a tag to Siberia....just like in the HoI2 mod 1914.....


i shall draw up new borders for the rus.civil war.....hopefully we can start again to work on it...but for now, i'd suggest working on a non-Revoltuions version and then updating it, as Zuck and myself dont have it yet....
 
The Kasiers new russian borders!!! hurrah!!!

i shall accompany them with some notes in a second...

Central Asia:
centralasiarussiancivilwar.jpg


Overall in West:
russiancivilwar.jpg


Notes, Central Asia:
Khiva and Bukhara shoudl be allied and have good relations with the whites, but not allied with them. Both should have fairly large armies, mainly comprised of irregulars, but Bukahara should have one infatry div, with guards and both should have a little cavalry.
The parts controlled by the Reds should be owned and controlled by them, all else is either white or cenral asian emirate controlled/owned etc etc.

Notes, Western theatre:
The Whites should own/controll etc the part in the Caucasus, North Russia and most of siberia and the Urals. Obviously the Reds controll and own all shown on that map. The Reds are at war with: Whites, Ukraine, Khiva and Bukhara. They shouldnt be at war with Poland, Azerbaijan, Georga and Armenia...yet. The Casuacas were conquered soon after Wrangels defeat in 1920/21 and the Russo-Polish war was in 1920ish.
Ukraine gets a hard deal...They are at war with Makhno, Russian Whites and possibly Poland. Odessa should come under French occupation and have 2 French and 2 Greek Divisions stationed there. The Allies left Odessa in april 1919. The Poles should obviously have claims on belorussia and Ukraine showing the post Treaty of Riga borders that stayed theirs till 1939. West Ukraine should also be at war with Poland and some events could show the Polish-Ukrainian war in which the Poles conquered West Ukraine etc and the pro-polish uprisings in places like Lvov.
As for the Baltics, in theory, Latvia and Lithuania were being overrun by the Reds, Vilna fell to the Reds and in turn was taken over by the Poles soon after etc. so perhaps either full scale war or maybe events could show the attack of the Reds in the Baltics.
Samara and Perm, although in the hands of the Reds should be weakly held and soon turn over to the control of the Whites, parts of the former Komuch should be seen as White owned, but Red controlled areas etc.
The Rebels in Bellorussia are to show the Bellorussian republic as it only last months, so to show it or at least the support it had etc.

As for the Far East, the Primorsk region with the exception of what should be Vladivostok should be occupied by the Japanese, Vladivostok should be owned/controlled by the Whites.

I shall try and sort out the exact OOB and where each armyshould be stationed, for christmas i got Ewans Mawdsley's Russian Civil War, so i have a good source on most of it.
 
i have also worked on a new, improved Red and White Russian and a few other factions...OOB's!!!


i would post them up..but i need to know if there is genuine interest in getting this set up again and that some work will be done...just saying, i cannot mod at all..well..at least most of it.
 
Nice work, KF. I hope to return very soon, as it seems my internet may finally be repaired next week. :cool:
 
ok..thing is...i would..well..i would like a non-revoltuions version to be done as well, as...i dont have revoltuions at this time, but...we can always do a version for both...finish off a basic vicky one..and then work on a rev version...or not...but i would like to play something on ordinary vicky...
 
Might I suggest that there shouldn´t be any Soviet war with the baltic states? Until now, the soviets have always smashed them and reduced them to their capitals, something that didn´t happen in our timeline. I suggest that this part of the civil war should be handled by events, but with the possibility that it flares up into war.
 
i'm all for that.....events that include revolts and militancy perhaps...

also, the situation in Latvia gets...well..pretty freaky when the German Freikorps arrest the Latvian government and then join with the West Russian army (whites in latvia) and then try and conquer the rest of Latvia and attempt an invasion of Estonia... :wacko:


i will also attempt to work on where the exact units should be for the whites...to tell the truth..i am more interesed in the rus.civil war at the moment...so..my efforts are with these monumental epic war...
 
The Makhnovshchina should, naturally, be at war with the Whites, Reds, and Ukrainians. Alternately, someone can dig up my old event chain (from this mod) for Makhno & co.

I also found that Makhno tended to fare much more poorly in the mod than in OTL. I guess everyone else was more distracted in the real situation, but we had his numbers down pretty well and he got smacked around every time...
 
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