Revision of the Végvár system modifier and a Hungarian tradition

Revision of the Végvár system modifier and a Hungarian tradition

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Kane_hun

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Greetings,

In today's episode, I would like to visit a topic about the Hungarian fortification event,
The Key of Hungary, which gives for 0.75 yearly income 25 % forst defense but -10% global tax for 30 years. (or you can choose to have Belgrade have reduced fort defense and add noble loyalty). The other aspect which I want to include, is one of the Hungarian traditions, namely the 5% army morale recovery speed.
I think, according to the historical significance of many successful defenses of Hungarian forts, this would be better represented in some of the following ways:

Option a) Keep the current event, but extend the modifier to the end of the game.
This would basically mean that for a small sum of money you exchange your 10% tax NI for 25% defensiveness NI.

Option b)Replace the mentioned tradition with fort defense and give the event garrison size modifier.
In this case the Ottomans (or whoever attacks them) would need larger forces for sieges, thus burning more on attrition and enabling the possibility of fighting back.

Option c)Replace the tradition with reduced fort maintenance on border with a rival. (and possibly include option a))
In my opinion this would be one of the best way to represent the close-to-the-enemy-borders function of the Végvár system and helping with the Hungarian economy (they start the game with numerous forts)

Option d) Replace the tradittion with garisson size modifier.
While not as good as the aboves, it would benefit the fighting chances as I explained above.

Why do I think that the modifier should be permament? I would like to point out that during the Ottoman era (before and after the fall of Hungary) many successful or semi-successful defenses halted the Ottomans conquest and their ambition to siege Vienna.
One of the most famous is the Siege of Belgrade in 1456. (Successful, with the help of János Hunyadi). The noon bell is tied to this event which is rang every day even today.
In 1532, Siege of Kőszeg (Güns). In the Habsburg part of Hungary the Croatian captain, Nikola Jurišić prevented the siege of Vienna as he held out against Suleiman himself, forcing him to return home for the winter. The siege resulted in a nominal victory, but a practical defeat for the Ottomans.
In 1552, the Siege of Eger (which has become an emblem of national defense and patriotic heroism in Hungary). The besieger forces couldnt capture the fort and ultimately withdrew, humiliated.
In 1566, the Siege of Szigetvár where Suleiman died, and the 2300-3000 defenders inflicted serious losses of 20 000-30 000 men. The siege of Vienna was once again postponed and was followed by the Treaty of Adrianople.
In 1685-1688 Ilona Zrínyi defended the Castle of Palanok (in Munkács, Máramaros province in-game) against the Austrian imperial forces. What is notable that they managed to hold out for three years, and when she had no choice but to surrender the castle, she did with the understanding that the defenders would receive amnesty from the Emperor, and that the Rákóczi estates would remain in her children's name.

What my point with these sieges is, that the modifer should be expanded as either as a permament modifier or as a national idea/tradition as during a my wider era the castles provided defensive lines and help in the defense of Vienna and subsequently the rest of Europe.

In conclusion, I would like to see some (or even the mix of) the above options implemented in the game to better reflect the significance of Hungarian forts.
 

otaats

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Being a native of Belgrade, i always welcome any suggestions about my city.

Here's another idea: How about an event/modifier Military Frontier? It makes historical sense, and the manpower recovery speed/small combat buff is quite in line with what the Frontier could represent realistically in game. The tradeoff? Larger autonomy in Slavic and Wallachian provinces, and missionary strength malus in Orthodox provinces (you guys did let us build Orthodox churches and self-manage our estates, after all!).
 

Kane_hun

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Being a native of Belgrade, i always welcome any suggestions about my city.

Here's another idea: How about an event/modifier Military Frontier? It makes historical sense, and the manpower recovery speed/small combat buff is quite in line with what the Frontier could represent realistically in game. The tradeoff? Larger autonomy in Slavic and Wallachian provinces, and missionary strength malus in Orthodox provinces (you guys did let us build Orthodox churches and self-manage our estates, after all!).
Perhaps not entirely but these events cover your suggestion:

Would you add more of this kind? More flavour is always welcomed.
 

otaats

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I didn't even know these events exist. They're quite great if you ask me, i'm positively surprised. Were they released with Hungary patch? They've added Belgrade in that one, too, only a few months after my first suggestion thread (i mentioned reasons for adding Belgrade, and Mil.Frontier among other things).

Can't really say that i thought of something too different than what you've shown me. I can only offer you a few names which were likely important at a point in time for Hungary - Vuk Grgurević and Dmitar Jakšić. BTW, i read that the Jakšić were called "pillars of christianity" by the Hungarian king. Do you know the reasoning behind it? There is also this event that could impact Hungary's internal composition even more (by flipping cultures in modern Vojvodina, for example).

Anyways i like your ideas, and i really hope the work on Hungary in this game is not done with past Hungary patch.
 

Sanguine Caesar

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Further reasoning for this could also be the construction of a vast network of fortifications in Croatia and Slavonia from 1458-1490 under Matthias Corvinus, as well as the existence of factors such as Hajduks (particularly in Slavic territories), who led several small-scale uprisings and agitations against Ottoman rule. Perhaps a special modifier could be applied to the Balkan/Carpathian regions increasing base unrest in provinces with unaccepted cultures? It would certainly help to reflect how difficult the region was to conquer for powers such as the Turks.

Being a native of Belgrade, i always welcome any suggestions about my city.

Here's another idea: How about an event/modifier Military Frontier? It makes historical sense, and the manpower recovery speed/small combat buff is quite in line with what the Frontier could represent realistically in game. The tradeoff? Larger autonomy in Slavic and Wallachian provinces, and missionary strength malus in Orthodox provinces (you guys did let us build Orthodox churches and self-manage our estates, after all!).
About the Military Frontier, I don't think the event should grant more autonomy as under the Habsburgs the area was ruled directly from the capital and was not subject to the authority to the Bans of Croatia or Slavonia, but rather the King himself. Not sure how it worked in other regions though, so there could be differences between them. Otherwise I agree with this event :)
 

otaats

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Not sure how it worked in other regions though, so there could be differences between them. Otherwise I agree with this event :)
I can't say that i am a close connosseur of Military Frontier, but i do know that Serbs were granted religious freedoms and high autonomy in Hungarian estates that were bought earlier by the Branković. Vuk Grgurević-Branković, and his successors, held the title Despot of Serbia in the Hungarian kingdom. This likely points out that he was granted the direct rule of his estates in Hungary, though of course, not as an independent entity.
 
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Kane_hun

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I can only offer you a few names which were likely important at a point in time for Hungary - Vuk Grgurević and Dmitar Jakšić. BTW, i read that the Jakšić were called "pillars of christianity" by the Hungarian king.
Thanks for your assistance! They were indeed released with the Hungary patch afaik.
From what I read in the sources you provided the people you mentioned could be represented best as generals perhaps, given by an event (perhaps fiddling with noble influence, since they received lands from the king).
I have been thinking about previously what should trigger these great migration events and I came to the conclusion that perhaps Hungarian culture provinces which border Serbian culture provinces (possibly with Serbian core on it) could flip if they have an Ottoman core and are reclaimed by Hungary again (although this was done under the Habsburgs so a maybe a large Christian nation could also work).
 

Kane_hun

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Hajduks (particularly in Slavic territories), who led several small-scale uprisings and agitations against Ottoman rule. Perhaps a special modifier could be applied to the Balkan/Carpathian regions increasing base unrest in provinces with unaccepted cultures?
I think that might be an overkill, but maybe an event could be trigger for the Ottomans which gives reduced Heathen tolerance (they mostly have heathens in the Balkans anyway, and they could be an example for opressed non believers in the other parts of the country as well).
 

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Option b)Replace the mentioned tradition with fort defense and give the event garrison size modifier.
In this case the Ottomans (or whoever attacks them) would need larger forces for sieges, thus burning more on attrition and enabling the possibility of fighting back.
Personally, I really like this particular suggestion. It definitely makes Hungary a harder nut to crack open, without hugely throwing game balance around and requiring a lot of work to implement.

Option c)Replace the tradition with reduced fort maintenance on border with a rival. (and possibly include option a))
In my opinion this would be one of the best way to represent the close-to-the-enemy-borders function of the Végvár system and helping with the Hungarian economy (they start the game with numerous forts)
I also like this suggestion, Hungary was known as the Hedgehog of Europe (I really hope I'm quoting that correctly).


Overall, I'd really love to see more Hungarian flavour. New unit models for a start, expanded events. For a kingdom that was massively powerful through the middle ages, it still feels a little unloved, though that was improved greatly after the Hungary patch.
 

otaats

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PS if you're hurting for unit packs, there's a very nice mod for Hungarian units, be sure to check them out. Until PDX makes a real unit pack :) There's also a great pack for Serbian, Bosnian and Ragusan units. The only thing you need to do, is edit the notepad file to correspond with the current update.