Revised: Mech vs. Mot. vs Armor: The Hard Facts

[Jon Shafer]

The spacing can be a bit funky to work with (it screws up a lot... don't ask me why). It takes a while to space things correctly unfortunately, but at least it works.

 

[Jon Shafer]

Bandkanon, I give you permission to borrow this.

[font=arial]
				Mech		Motor

Ground Defense (GD)			4		3

Air Defense			1		1 

Soft Attack(SA)			3		3

Hard Attack(HA)			2		1

Air Attack				2		2

Supply Comsumption (S)		1.5		1

Fuel Consumption(F)			4		0.5

Service Rifle			GD+1 (5)		GD+1 (4)
				SA+1 (4)		SA+1 (4)

Flamethrower			GD+1 (6)		GD+1 (5)

Frontline Medical Station		GD+1 (7)		GD+1 (6)

Basic Submachinegun		SA+1 (5)		SA+1 (5)
				GD+1 (8)		GD+1 (7)

Basic AT Magnetic Mines		GD+1 (9)		GD+1 (8)

Improved Tube - Launched Rock.		HA+1 (3)

Advanced Tube - Launched Rock.	HA+1 (4)		HA+1 (2)

Mine Clearing Equipment		GD+1 (10)		GD+1 (9)

Standardized Ammunition		S-1 (0.5)		S-1 (0)

Standardized Cargo Spaces		S-1 (-0.5)		S-1 (-1)

Refuel Ammunition Teams		S-1 (-1.5)		S-1 (-2)
				F-1 (3)		F-1 (-0.5)

Tank Transportation Trucks		S-1 (-2.5)

Improved Submachinegun 		SA+1 (6)
				GD+1 (11)

Basic Assault Rifle			SA+2 (8)
				GD+2 (13)

Wire - Guided AT - Missile		HA+2 (6)

Improved AT Magnetic Mine		HA+1 (7)
				GD+1 (14)

Direct Blast - Effect Mines		HA+1 (8)
				SA+1 (9)
				GD+1 (15)

AT Recoilless Rocket Launcher		GD+1 (10)

Tracked Ammunition Carrier		S-1 (-3.5)

Tracked Refuel and Ammunition		F-1 (2) 

Tracked Refuel and Ammo Teams	F-1 (1)
				S-1 (-4.5)

Improved Assault Rifle		SA+1 (10)		GD+1 (11)

The final Tally

Mech	: GD = 15	HA = 8	SA = 10	S = -4.5	F = 1
Mot.	: GD = 11	HA = 2	SA =5	S = -2	F = -0.5
[/font]

 

[Jon Shafer]

I see both Infantry Guns and Assault Guns in the list...

And if the Tank Destroyer models (and similar techs) work the same as Panzer models, you can only produce 70mm+ OR 80mm+ OR 90mm+, and not all three to get a bonus.

And can someone explain to me how you can have negative supply and fuel consumption?!?

 

[Jon Shafer]

No, negative unit fuel consumption, i.e. when you move your motorized division it gives you fuel.

 

[Jon Shafer]

Originally posted by bandkanon
Hmmmm What you said about either or on the guns thus will make all the values less since they are not aggregates, but then I can't do anything to revise that yet until I play the game and figure out whats what.

And that's why I decided to point it out.

On the fuel and supply negative: At first I thought that those values will have positive numbers tacked on from other techs. However, I didn't find any. So I provide a theory:

Assumption: S and F negative values are not possible since that will mean units will generate S and F which does not make sense. Therefore S and F final values have to be positive.

The original S and F values are for idle units. You just sit there and they will consume that much per day or per time unit. However, once they start moving they consume much more. That will also depend if they are attacking or defending or rolling through rough terrain or harsh weather. So those negatives apply to S and F when the units are attacking or moving per time unit. I don't think we have seen the tables for S and F consumption for units depending on the terrain and weather and attack and defend.

Any other ideas??

That's the only reasonable thing I can think of, unless those numbers go through all sorts of calculations to end up with the actual amount of fuel consumption.

 

[Jon Shafer]

Mechanized Infantry are very well-rounded... a great asset while on the offensive. They can pin down units on the front while the tanks strike beyond, or they can accompany the tanks while slower forces mop up resistance behind the main spearheads, or they can be replacements for tanks in some situations if need be. Like you said, the only prohibitive factor is that they're rather expensive to maintain.

Motorized Infantry are good replacements for Mechanized Infantry if you're attacking and need a good, mobile strike force, but don't have the resources to accomodate a mechanized force.

Straight-up Infantry divisions are good on defensive, and little else (try taking that soft attack value against another infantry's ground defense near the end of the game! ).

I'm rather surprised that regular Infantry divisions are so inept by the end of the game... they still recieved certain upgrades like flamethrowers, rocket type units (like the bazooka or panzerschreck), which out to raise their stats a little more than that... I suppose they had to justify building the other types of infantry divisions for offensive operations by giving them a fair amount of extra techs that benefit them and not regular infantry. Of course, then again, the whole problem with extra values due to adding all three types of assault guns/infantry guns/tank destroyers might be eliminated if I'm correct about only one type of upgrade for each category.

 

[Jon Shafer]

You have a point.

They might actually be cumulative after all, now that I think of it, since they're really just 'tech upgrades'.

Okay, after some more reading and research here's what I've come up with...

There are 3 different models of assault guns you can research. The first two (Light and Medium) you don't have a choice as to what to pick, but for heavy there are two (100mm and 150mm), which means you can only research one or the other. BUT, like you pointed out, they give the same bonus, which is rather interesting.

Three different models of Tank Destroyers that can be built as well, but there are more choices. There are three different types of light TDs to research, three types of medium TDs and two heavy TDs. However, again, the values seem to be the same or nearly so, so why you'd want to research one over the other is in question once again.

 

[Jon Shafer]

You're right Loewefuchs... I guess that's what happens when you look through too many numbers and charts at 3am.

All of the different types of TD and AG models provide cumulative bonuses. I didn't check the specifics for the TD and AG techs.

Bandkanon, he's right about the instant upgrade. Since it's designated "when=now" that means the upgrade is instantaneous and free. If a line is missing that statement, then you have to refit. Otherwise the bonuses take effect as soon as the research is finished.

On the other hand, why creating a new model of Tank Destroyer would be an instantaneous improvement to Mechanized Infantry divisions is beyond me...

 

[Jon Shafer]

Originally posted by bandkanon
Hmmm, but then in the AAR's there are mentions of refits. So what are they refitting then if every tech I looked at for that list said "when=now"? I am very doubtful that upgrades are instantaneous. In RL the panzer divisions had to be refitted all the time. I don't think I have ever seen a not "when=now" statement for a tech.

According to what I've heard from some of the betas, that's what "when = now" means...

Ok then so the techs give cumulative bonuses. So let me get this straight:

If I choose to go for the 100mm gun that gives me 1 point. If I choose the 80mm gun that gives me 1 point. However if I choose the 80mm I can still choose the 100mm later and thus get 2 points? But if I go for the 100mm I skip the 80mm and I only get 1 point since I can't go back. Sounds kinda unrealistic. But then I can't fathom how this will work: having both cumulative effects and choosing techs that give the same value even if one sounds better than the other.

Actually, the way the tech tree is structured, the 80mm version has to have already been researched in order to research the 100mm variant.

 

[Jon Shafer]

Originally posted by bandkanon
I meant the 80mm and the 100mm as an example. Ummm, how about the one you talked about between choosing different tank destroyers. Use that instead. Unless you have to research the lighter ones in order to get to the heavier guns. Then that will mean you have no choice and everything is cumulative and thus my list is correct in assuming cumulative effects.

You're correct.
The 80mm to 100mm example will work for any situation...

All Assault Gun techs and Tank Destroyer techs are progressively researched, and thus, all bonuses are cumulative, as you stated.