Revised Air Combat

[Bullfrog]

but there is a difference... an air battle should have an ENORMOUS frontage... let's take the example of london... I don't no very well but I'm going to assume that the city enters in a box of 5x5 km... a let's put a max. altitude of 6km... and now we give to every airplane a box of 100x100x100 m (which is quite big, in formation 4 bombers enter in no more than 100x50x10 box aprox)... and this mean that you could put 150.000 airplanes and still have a lot of room to fight... for me doesn't seems correct to limit the units that you could put in the air over a province... instead you should avoid super-stacks with other measures... maybe I post some of my ideas later (have to continue studing aplications of integrals to volume and area calculation )

Well I see your point. Perhaps another measure could be used. If range was based on actual A to B distance rather than area that might help...also efficiency of command (stacking penalty) could be increased...or a logistics model of some kind.

 

[Ostheim]

Maybe a solution could be almost as simple as just using larger air units than wings (hoi2) as has been mentioned. Build squadrons of air units that can't be grouped but act like divisions without armies in hoi2? This way you have your necessary missions and your units are flying through provinces but then there are much less units you have to order when trying to use air power effectively.

 

[Zwiback]

Maybe a solution could be almost as simple as just using larger air units than wings (hoi2) as has been mentioned. Build squadrons of air units that can't be grouped but act like divisions without armies in hoi2? This way you have your necessary missions and your units are flying through provinces but then there are much less units you have to order when trying to use air power effectively.

And how do you exactly intecept enemy bombers or distribute your airpower over a front like in Russia? What about small countries which cannot affort much planes? With four times more provinces this system is totally obsolete .

I guess they already have made up their mind, so I will wait and see whats coming in HOI3. But I am sure the model will much improved compared to HOI2.

 

[unmerged(51222)]

Can someone enlighten me? I am probably on the wrong forum, but find it difficult to manage bombing campaigns on HOI2.

When I send a bombing campaign to soften up the front lines I find that my bombers end up travelling over to regions that have nothing to do with my proposed mission. They end up suffering damage flying around and or bombing areas that are a few provinces away from the front line and end up returning useless after a few missions. I find I would like to have the option to bomb specific provinces aside from generally encompasing full regions.

I also have problems working my air divisions. Once I make an air division they are stuck together for the whole game. If I make an error in grouping a division or have chosen to group together planes for temporary management I cannot change it and I am forced to suffer with the setup for the rest of the game. I have had escorts flying about the game with no bombers and bombers with no escorts with no means of bringing them together.

Have these issues been patched, fixed or improved in HOI2 doomsday or am I doing something wrong?

 

[Alex_brunius]

Can someone enlighten me? I am probably on the wrong forum, but find it difficult to manage bombing campaigns on HOI2.

When I send a bombing campaign to soften up the front lines I find that my bombers end up travelling over to regions that have nothing to do with my proposed mission. They end up suffering damage flying around and or bombing areas that are a few provinces away from the front line and end up returning useless after a few missions. I find I would like to have the option to bomb specific provinces aside from generally encompasing full regions.

As Ive said before this is a AI problem, not a mission problem. If you choose "Close air support" as mission and select an area then the AI should make sure your bombers are only targeting frontline enemies, with priority on those engaged in combat. Unfortunately the AI in HoI2 is stupid and targets the province with smallest amounts of units, and thats usually a single dug in division behind the enemy lines. With a greatly improved AI I would have no problems with not selecting an area at all, but leaving it up to the AI (airbase commander) to find suitable targets within range.

 

[unmerged(51222)]

As Ive said before this is a AI problem, not a mission problem. If you choose "Close air support" as mission and select an area then the AI should make sure your bombers are only targeting frontline enemies, with priority on those engaged in combat. Unfortunately the AI in HoI2 is stupid and targets the province with smallest amounts of units, and thats usually a single dug in division behind the enemy lines. With a greatly improved AI I would have no problems with not selecting an area at all, but leaving it up to the AI (airbase commander) to find suitable targets within range.

I see said the blind man.

Any solutions I have missed out on the grouping and ungrouping of planes from one air unit to the next?

 

[Alex_brunius]

Any solutions I have missed out on the grouping and ungrouping of planes from one air unit to the next?

HoI2 help does not really belong on this forum but ok. There is a little split button below that you can use to ungroup airwings from each other (forms two groups with one empty and allows you to transfer airwings from one to the other). Not sure about attachment escortfighters though, I know you can detatch things from land divisions but I have never needed to do it with air. Im playing the latest version DD:Arm 1.2 btw.

 

[Lazy_Boy]

The current system is alright if it gave more automation options and detailed info. It should be more abstracted though. Air combat on this scale should be about setting up air bases and assigning general missions.

 

[Ostheim]

And how do you exactly intecept enemy bombers or distribute your airpower over a front like in Russia? What about small countries which cannot affort much planes? With four times more provinces this system is totally obsolete .

I guess they already have made up their mind, so I will wait and see whats coming in HOI3. But I am sure the model will much improved compared to HOI2.

In hoi2 you can send lone wings of bombers everywhere if you want, that to me doesn't seem very realistic. I'm no expert on air warfare so please correct me if wrong, but I don't think wings or staffel (ger) very often if ever went on missions alone at the scale we're working with in hoi3. At the very least we need the air force to be a little more hands-off with more efficient and logical AI.

Like the suggestion made about interceptors staying grounded until enemy planes are spotted. We need an air superiority mission -and- and interception mission, one for suppressing enemy planes offensively and one for countering bomber attacks defensively. Though agreed on the point that HoI3 will probably have much improved air combat that will make people happy.

 

[unmerged(122939)]

In hoi2 you can send lone wings of bombers everywhere if you want, that to me doesn't seem very realistic. I'm no expert on air warfare so please correct me if wrong, but I don't think wings or staffel (ger) very often if ever went on missions alone at the scale we're working with in hoi3.

Well, actually it was done, all RAF strategic bombing campain was done with alone bombers, without any escort (if this is what you are telling).

Like the suggestion made about interceptors staying grounded until enemy planes are spotted. We need an air superiority mission -and- and interception mission, one for suppressing enemy planes offensively and one for countering bomber attacks defensively.

That is unrealistic, when you doesn't have a radar for have a early warning, you need to keep airplanes in the air to be able to react, it's no easy from the ground to detect a airplane flying at 10.000-12.000m... so you need to have your airplanes patroling to increase your probabilities of detecting an enemy intruder, in fact that kind of mission has a name, Combat Air Patrol, which could be offensive or defensive (depends if you fly over enemy or friendly territory).

 

[Alex_brunius]

So you need to have your airplanes patroling to increase your probabilities of detecting an enemy intruder, in fact that kind of mission has a name, Combat Air Patrol, which could be offensive or defensive (depends if you fly over enemy or friendly territory).

Hmm I was under the impression that a combat air patroll (CAP) at this time was a mission only used defensivlly mostly by Carrier airwings or protect their own base.

Reason it was mostly used for Carriers was that they were 100 times more fraglie than land based airfields and that you didn't have much forces and AA battries on the approaches to give warning. How do you explain that AA could shoot down so many bombers if they couldn't see them?

Today I know the term have the meaning you attribute to it, but did it really in WW2?

 

[unmerged(122939)]

Hmm I was under the impression that a combat air patroll (CAP) at this time was a mission only used defensivlly mostly by Carrier airwings or protect their own base.

Reason it was mostly used for Carriers was that they were 100 times more fraglie than land based airfields and that you didn't have much forces and AA battries on the approaches to give warning. How do you explain that AA could shoot down so many bombers if they couldn't see them?

Today I know the term have the meaning you attribute to it, but did it really in WW2?

Well, in the western front there was no need of CAP missions because both UK and Germany had radars, so they actually can see the enemy when approaches, that explain why AA was able to do the damage they did, but in the eastern front the situation was quite different, there were no radars there (due the nature of the air combat), so keeping a force of fighter in CAP missions was the only way to ensure air supremacy, or at least trying to defend yourself.

 

[Ostheim]

I think it's realistic, the interceptors would only watch their 'area' (province cluster) and if any enemy planes entered that area they would scramble into a combat air patrol type deal in that limited area.

 

[Alex_brunius]

But in the eastern front the situation was quite different, there were no radars there (due the nature of the air combat), so keeping a force of fighter in CAP missions was the only way to ensure air supremacy, or at least trying to defend yourself.

Alright Im just using the wiki definition:

The first CAPs were characteristic of aircraft carrier operations, where CAPs were flown to protect a carrier battle group, but the term has become generic to both Air Force and Navy flight operations

And I was under the impression that aircombat on the eastern front took place either at the airfields or at the troops. With such huge distances was it really wise and did it happen that aircommanders sent their planes up to guard a large random patrol area? (such as the air superiority mission is realized in HoI2).

 

[Karelian]

I agree with the first post of this thread, thousands of planes flying around in one huge swarm is just way ahistorical and I see no reason to retain that system. Abstracted mechanics (as suggested in the first posts) don´t have to mean that you won´t have eye candy, there can still be visual models for fighters and bombers operating in certain areas and missions. Meanwhile thousands of planes wont any longer be able to randomly slip past just as large opposing forces, for example.

 

[potski]

In HOI1 and 2, air combat is derived from land combat (for programming expediency no doubt,which is why I sympathize,but still...). This is wrong. Everything from the scale to combat dynamics are completely different for them to share the same "face-to-face" system. (don't even get me started about naval firing distance, a tactical feature in a grand strategy game)

Air Combat should be abstractized for the sake of systematic consistency.We should no more see squadrons battling than we should see individual battalions.

...

Lots of good points about the combat model. But even the movement is now not going to be able to work like land units. This is completely destroyed by the small province size (about 30km across by my estimate) in HOI3.

Land units moving at 10km/day are OK traversing a 30km province in three days. No problem. Start them moving: 1 hour 1.4% travelled; 2 hours 2.8% travelled; etc. Even very mobile units moving forward in high infrastructure provinces without combat FE 50km/day, still no problem. Lots more messages every day of the type, "9th Armoured Division has reached [province]" but manageable.

But planes flying at 30km per hour? That means Ger. TAC attempting to bomb Coventry from airbases in Northern France are going to be in the air flying over England for 8-9 hours. With a possibility of being in the air a total of 16-20 hours for each mission. How about US STR flying from Norwich to Berlin?

Alternatively, they fly faster than 30km per hour and jump forward two provinces, skip forward one, then hop another two. So how does that work if they manage to hop over German interceptors waiting for them along the coast close to their airbases in Holland?

FL: "Navigator, it's now 3am. I think we should be over Hamburg by about now"
Nav: "Sorry, Flight Lieutenant, we passed over it at 2:40. We're over Segeberg now."
FL: "Darn it man! Why didn't you inform me?"
Nav: "No point, Sir, we can only drop bombs every hour."
FL: "But, I've never even heard of Segeberg. Are there any important targets here? Any tank factories?"
Nav: "I think I can see some important diary farms below us. We can drop their CIF level to zero."
FL: "CIF? We didn't learn that expression at public school. Too busy playing rugger."
Nav: "Sorry, Sir. I meant Cows In Field."

 

[Hebos.vU]

Hehe

Sharp observation, can't wait to hear how Paradox have chosen to model Air combat in HOI3. Maybe in today's Dev Diary?

 

[Alex_brunius]

But planes flying at 30km per hour? That means Ger. TAC attempting to bomb Coventry from airbases in Northern France are going to be in the air flying over England for 8-9 hours. With a possibility of being in the air a total of 16-20 hours for each mission. How about US STR flying from Norwich to Berlin?

Thats actually a pretty good argument to make all air movement provinceless (naval too if the size of sea provinces will be reduced aswell).
Instead they would fly in a straight line from target to goal and we could have airspeed actually matter. B17 Bombers travelling at 293km/hour with Focke Wulf fighters scrambling to intercept at around twice their cruise speed.

The only other solution I can think of is to let the fighters AI always "know" what province bombers will end up in the next hour, so that they may travell there aswell and intercept.

 

[unmerged(94130)]

Hehe

Sharp observation, can't wait to hear how Paradox have chosen to model Air combat in HOI3. Maybe in today's Dev Diary?

If we could choose the province target !
Just that !

 

[Alex_brunius]

If we could choose the province target !
Just that !

You mean if we just could have 5(#no of provinces) x 5(provinces / area) = 25 times as much Micromanagement?