Review of the mechanics of the Council of Trent

[Kauê II]

Review of the mechanics of the Council of Trent​

An Emperor DLC sought to improve the mechanics, but I think it was misused according to his ideas.




1-National Positions

As it stands now, it is totally unbalanced and not at all flashy to defend the "harsh" position that only harms the entire Catholic world by promoting the new "opinion of heretics" penalty. It was the main focus of criticism for what I read here on the forum [1]. I add the following question, what is the logic of the conciliatory side to be able to have better relations with the papal states than the “harsh” side? For their current bonus, do this. I haven't found a player yet who prefers “+ 2% Missionary strength” suffering from the “−25% Institution spread” penalty.

The historical time begins is reversed, in my view. It shouldn't start with the “The“ Counciul of Trent ”event, but end with it. From then on, the “Roma Locuta, Causa Finita Est” prevails in the Catholic milieu. If you are going to keep this mechanic, you better start, right after the event “The Protestant Reformation”.

I also believe that it should be a mechanic available only for use by the Holy Roman Empire emperor who has the Catholic religion. Hence during the period that you have these bonuses, you could enable mechanics similar to those of the orthodox with the “Third Rome” DLC, being able to choose 3 different concessions depending on the position adopted by the player. A concession common to both sides would be the option "Magisterium of the pope", remembering Luther's recognition of this in his 95 theses [2]. The "harsh" player would still have his options between the "Vulgate" and "Oral Tradition" options. The idea is to limit them to these three, to make reference to the tripod that underlies the Catholic faith, which are the Magisterium, Tradition and the Bible. On the “conciliatory” side, the other 2 options would be “Sola Fide” and “Sola Scriptura”. It would be these two, because within the 5 Soles that support Protestantism, the “Sola Fide” can be understood as the material principle and “Sola Scriptura” the formal principle of the “Protestant Reformation”.




2-Curia Controller




More realistic would be to follow the mechanics inaugurated in the “Golden Bulls” DLC used by the “Curia Controller”, where the other players should not even have influence. Here, instead of talking about concessions, let's talk about something more relevant: decrees. After the event “The Reformation of the Catholic Faith” takes place, the “Curia Controller” has at its disposal the Bull of the Sacrossanto Council of Trent where the player can use up to 2 decrees. Here it would represent the first period of the Council that took place in the years 1545 to 1547, inaugurated by such a bull by Pope Paul III. This would be the beginning of when Catholic countries would start receiving permanent bonuses. As a new pope appears, it will be possible to use the Council's Reinstatement Bull, limited to choosing only one bonus. A third pope will make room to use the Council's Reinstatement Bull once again when he will be able to use the last decree. Here we represent the second period (1551-1552) with the bull of Pope Julius II and the third period (1562-1563) with the bull of Pope Pius IV.




The decrees available, following the historical chronological order:




a) Decree on the Canonical Scriptures (section IV of the Ecumenical Council of Trento-year 1.546):

“The sacrosanct Ecumenical and General Council of Trent, legitimately gathered in the Holy Spirit, and with the presidency of the same three legacies of the Apostolic See, always bearing this in mind that, when errors are rejected, the purity of the Gospel, promised, be preserved before in the Holy Scriptures by the prophets, which Our Lord Jesus Christ the Son of God, first with his own word promulgated and then, through his Apostles, commanded to preach it to every creature (Mt 18, 19 s; Mk 16, 15), as the source of all salutary truth and discipline of customs. Seeing that this truth and discipline are contained in the written books and oral traditions, which - received either by the Apostles from the lips of Christ himself, or from the Apostles themselves under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit - came to us as if handed over from hand to hand, faithful to the examples of the Orthodox Fathers, with an equal feeling of piety and reverence accepted and venerated all books, both the Old and New Testament, since they both have the same God for author, as well as the same traditions that refer to both faith and customs, whether orally received only from Christ or dictated by the Holy Spirit and preserved by continuous succession in the Catholic Church. And so that there is no doubt about someone about the books that are accepted by the same Council, he decided to add to this decree the index of the Holy Books. Therefore, they are listed below:

From the Old Testament: the 5 of Moses, namely: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy; Joshua, Judges, Ruth, the four of the Kings, the two of the Paralipômenos, the first of Ezra and the second, which is called Nehemiah; Tobias, Judith, Esther, Job, the Psalter of David with 150 psalms, the Proverbs, the Ecclesiastes, the Song of Songs, Wisdom, Ecclesiastical, Isaiah, Jeremiah, with Baruch, Ezekiel, Daniel; the 12 minor prophets, namely: Hosea, Joel, Amos, Abdias, Jonah, Micah, Nahum, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Malachi; the first and the second of the Maccabees.

From the New Testament: The four Gospels: according to S. Mateus, S. Marcos, S. Lucas and S. João; the Acts of the Apostles written by the evangelist S. Lucas; the 14 epistles of St. Paul: to the Romans, two to the Corinthians, the Galatians, the Ephesians, the Felipenses, the Colossians, two to the Thessalonians, two to Timothy, to Titus, to Philemon, to the Hebrews; two from the Apostle St. Peter; three by the Apostle St. John; one by the Apostle St. James; one by the Apostle S. Judas; and the Apocalypse of St. John. If one does not accept these books as sacred and canonical in their entirety with all its parts, as was customary to be read in the Catholic Church and as found in the old edition of the Latin Vulgate; and knowingly and premeditated contempt of predicted traditions: - be excommunicated.

Therefore, after laying the foundation for the confession of the faith, let everyone know in what order and in what sense the Council itself will proceed and especially what testimonies and arguments it will use in the confirmation of dogmas and in the restoration of customs in the Church ”.




b) Decree on justification (Section VI - year 1.547)

Very long, I limit myself to quote these excerpts:

“Cap. VIII - How it is understood that the sinner is saved by faith and grace

When the Apostle says that man is saved by faith and grace, his words must be understood in the sense that the Catholic Church has perpetually adopted and consented, that when it is said that we are saved by faith while this is the principle of salvation of the man, foundation and root of all salvation, and without which it is impossible to be pleasing to God, or to participate in the good destiny of His children, it is also said that we are saved by grace because none of the things that precede salvation, be it faith or whether works deserve the grace of salvation because if it is grace, it does not come from works, or as the Apostle says, grace would not be grace.

Chapter IX - Against the vain trust of heretics

Even if it is necessary to believe that sins are not forgiven and will never be forgiven except by the grace of Divine mercy and the merits of Jesus Christ, it cannot be said that they are forgiven or that they have forgiven anyone who has shown their confidence. and certainty that their sins will be forgiven without the grace and mercy of God, and if they stick only to that, because they can be found among heretics and schismatics, or better said, it is talked about a lot in our times and is advocated with great commitment against the Catholic Church, this vain and very distant trust from all piety, neither can it be denied that the truly saved must take for granted, without a doubt, that they are saved by divine grace and mercy, nor that no one is absolved from his sins and is saved if only with the certainty that he is absolved and saved with that same grace, nor that with only this belief he can achieve all his perfection, forgiveness and salvation, implying that If he did not believe this, he would doubt the promises of God and the certainty of the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, for just as no godly person should doubt the divine mercy, the merits of Jesus Christ, or the virtue and efficacy of the sacraments.

In the same way everyone can fear and fear about their state of grace if they revert all consideration to themselves and their own weakness and indisposition, because no one can know even with the certainty of their faith, in which there is no mistake, that they have obtained the grace of God ”.




c) Decree on the Blessed Sacrament of the Eucharist (section XIII- year 1551)

All decrees dealing with Catholic understanding of the sacraments are interesting for the game, considering the historical context. But one has to choose one that is the Eucharist, as this would be the greatest of the sacraments since we speak of the real presence of God.




d) Decree on indulgences (Section XXV- year 1563)

A good alternative decree for this historical period would be that of purgatory. But I thought it best to advise you to use this one. For the question of indulgences is considered to be one of the main reasons for Luther's breakup. Here is an excerpt:

“According the power of conferring Indulgences was granted by Christ to the Church; and she has, even in the most ancient times, used the said power, delivered unto her of God; the sacred holy Synod teaches, and enjoins, that the use of Indulgences, for the Christian people most salutary, and approved of [Page 278] by the authority of sacred Councils, is to be retained in the Church; and It condemns with anathema those who either assert, that they are useless or who deny that there is in the Church the power of granting them ... ”

​

 

[Kewlkhat]

Review of the mechanics of the Council of Trent​

An Emperor DLC sought to improve the mechanics, but I think it was misused according to his ideas.




1-National Positions

As it stands now, it is totally unbalanced and not at all flashy to defend the "harsh" position that only harms the entire Catholic world by promoting the new "opinion of heretics" penalty. It was the main focus of criticism for what I read here on the forum [1]. I add the following question, what is the logic of the conciliatory side to be able to have better relations with the papal states than the “harsh” side? For their current bonus, do this. I haven't found a player yet who prefers “+ 2% Missionary strength” suffering from the “−25% Institution spread” penalty.

The historical time begins is reversed, in my view. It shouldn't start with the “The“ Counciul of Trent ”event, but end with it. From then on, the “Roma Locuta, Causa Finita Est” prevails in the Catholic milieu. If you are going to keep this mechanic, you better start, right after the event “The Protestant Reformation”.

I also believe that it should be a mechanic available only for use by the Holy Roman Empire emperor who has the Catholic religion. Hence during the period that you have these bonuses, you could enable mechanics similar to those of the orthodox with the “Third Rome” DLC, being able to choose 3 different concessions depending on the position adopted by the player. A concession common to both sides would be the option "Magisterium of the pope", remembering Luther's recognition of this in his 95 theses [2]. The "harsh" player would still have his options between the "Vulgate" and "Oral Tradition" options. The idea is to limit them to these three, to make reference to the tripod that underlies the Catholic faith, which are the Magisterium, Tradition and the Bible. On the “conciliatory” side, the other 2 options would be “Sola Fide” and “Sola Scriptura”. It would be these two, because within the 5 Soles that support Protestantism, the “Sola Fide” can be understood as the material principle and “Sola Scriptura” the formal principle of the “Protestant Reformation”.




2-Curia Controller




More realistic would be to follow the mechanics inaugurated in the “Golden Bulls” DLC used by the “Curia Controller”, where the other players should not even have influence. Here, instead of talking about concessions, let's talk about something more relevant: decrees. After the event “The Reformation of the Catholic Faith” takes place, the “Curia Controller” has at its disposal the Bull of the Sacrossanto Council of Trent where the player can use up to 2 decrees. Here it would represent the first period of the Council that took place in the years 1545 to 1547, inaugurated by such a bull by Pope Paul III. This would be the beginning of when Catholic countries would start receiving permanent bonuses. As a new pope appears, it will be possible to use the Council's Reinstatement Bull, limited to choosing only one bonus. A third pope will make room to use the Council's Reinstatement Bull once again when he will be able to use the last decree. Here we represent the second period (1551-1552) with the bull of Pope Julius II and the third period (1562-1563) with the bull of Pope Pius IV.




The decrees available, following the historical chronological order:




a) Decree on the Canonical Scriptures (section IV of the Ecumenical Council of Trento-year 1.546):

“The sacrosanct Ecumenical and General Council of Trent, legitimately gathered in the Holy Spirit, and with the presidency of the same three legacies of the Apostolic See, always bearing this in mind that, when errors are rejected, the purity of the Gospel, promised, be preserved before in the Holy Scriptures by the prophets, which Our Lord Jesus Christ the Son of God, first with his own word promulgated and then, through his Apostles, commanded to preach it to every creature (Mt 18, 19 s; Mk 16, 15), as the source of all salutary truth and discipline of customs. Seeing that this truth and discipline are contained in the written books and oral traditions, which - received either by the Apostles from the lips of Christ himself, or from the Apostles themselves under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit - came to us as if handed over from hand to hand, faithful to the examples of the Orthodox Fathers, with an equal feeling of piety and reverence accepted and venerated all books, both the Old and New Testament, since they both have the same God for author, as well as the same traditions that refer to both faith and customs, whether orally received only from Christ or dictated by the Holy Spirit and preserved by continuous succession in the Catholic Church. And so that there is no doubt about someone about the books that are accepted by the same Council, he decided to add to this decree the index of the Holy Books. Therefore, they are listed below:

From the Old Testament: the 5 of Moses, namely: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy; Joshua, Judges, Ruth, the four of the Kings, the two of the Paralipômenos, the first of Ezra and the second, which is called Nehemiah; Tobias, Judith, Esther, Job, the Psalter of David with 150 psalms, the Proverbs, the Ecclesiastes, the Song of Songs, Wisdom, Ecclesiastical, Isaiah, Jeremiah, with Baruch, Ezekiel, Daniel; the 12 minor prophets, namely: Hosea, Joel, Amos, Abdias, Jonah, Micah, Nahum, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Malachi; the first and the second of the Maccabees.

From the New Testament: The four Gospels: according to S. Mateus, S. Marcos, S. Lucas and S. João; the Acts of the Apostles written by the evangelist S. Lucas; the 14 epistles of St. Paul: to the Romans, two to the Corinthians, the Galatians, the Ephesians, the Felipenses, the Colossians, two to the Thessalonians, two to Timothy, to Titus, to Philemon, to the Hebrews; two from the Apostle St. Peter; three by the Apostle St. John; one by the Apostle St. James; one by the Apostle S. Judas; and the Apocalypse of St. John. If one does not accept these books as sacred and canonical in their entirety with all its parts, as was customary to be read in the Catholic Church and as found in the old edition of the Latin Vulgate; and knowingly and premeditated contempt of predicted traditions: - be excommunicated.

Therefore, after laying the foundation for the confession of the faith, let everyone know in what order and in what sense the Council itself will proceed and especially what testimonies and arguments it will use in the confirmation of dogmas and in the restoration of customs in the Church ”.




b) Decree on justification (Section VI - year 1.547)

Very long, I limit myself to quote these excerpts:

“Cap. VIII - How it is understood that the sinner is saved by faith and grace

When the Apostle says that man is saved by faith and grace, his words must be understood in the sense that the Catholic Church has perpetually adopted and consented, that when it is said that we are saved by faith while this is the principle of salvation of the man, foundation and root of all salvation, and without which it is impossible to be pleasing to God, or to participate in the good destiny of His children, it is also said that we are saved by grace because none of the things that precede salvation, be it faith or whether works deserve the grace of salvation because if it is grace, it does not come from works, or as the Apostle says, grace would not be grace.

Chapter IX - Against the vain trust of heretics

Even if it is necessary to believe that sins are not forgiven and will never be forgiven except by the grace of Divine mercy and the merits of Jesus Christ, it cannot be said that they are forgiven or that they have forgiven anyone who has shown their confidence. and certainty that their sins will be forgiven without the grace and mercy of God, and if they stick only to that, because they can be found among heretics and schismatics, or better said, it is talked about a lot in our times and is advocated with great commitment against the Catholic Church, this vain and very distant trust from all piety, neither can it be denied that the truly saved must take for granted, without a doubt, that they are saved by divine grace and mercy, nor that no one is absolved from his sins and is saved if only with the certainty that he is absolved and saved with that same grace, nor that with only this belief he can achieve all his perfection, forgiveness and salvation, implying that If he did not believe this, he would doubt the promises of God and the certainty of the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, for just as no godly person should doubt the divine mercy, the merits of Jesus Christ, or the virtue and efficacy of the sacraments.

In the same way everyone can fear and fear about their state of grace if they revert all consideration to themselves and their own weakness and indisposition, because no one can know even with the certainty of their faith, in which there is no mistake, that they have obtained the grace of God ”.




c) Decree on the Blessed Sacrament of the Eucharist (section XIII- year 1551)

All decrees dealing with Catholic understanding of the sacraments are interesting for the game, considering the historical context. But one has to choose one that is the Eucharist, as this would be the greatest of the sacraments since we speak of the real presence of God.




d) Decree on indulgences (Section XXV- year 1563)

A good alternative decree for this historical period would be that of purgatory. But I thought it best to advise you to use this one. For the question of indulgences is considered to be one of the main reasons for Luther's breakup. Here is an excerpt:

“According the power of conferring Indulgences was granted by Christ to the Church; and she has, even in the most ancient times, used the said power, delivered unto her of God; the sacred holy Synod teaches, and enjoins, that the use of Indulgences, for the Christian people most salutary, and approved of [Page 278] by the authority of sacred Councils, is to be retained in the Church; and It condemns with anathema those who either assert, that they are useless or who deny that there is in the Church the power of granting them ... ”

​

i choose the 2% missionary strength because i convert land

 

[Kauê II]

I had not been able to provide the following notes that I refer to in the initial post:

Notes:

[1] https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...evances-against-the-council-of-trent.1443741/

[2] Check the following numbers in Luther's 95 theses: 42, 50, 51, 53, 55, 70, 91

 

[Kauê II]

i choose the 2% missionary strength because i convert land

I am grateful for the contribution. But to register better here, can you develop your statement a little more? You prefer the bonus with your “harsh” penalty over “conciliatory”. And what do you think of the neutral position where you do not earn the bonus, but does not lead to such a penalty. But before your answer, let me remind you here that your technological advancement has strength in the ranking in all three areas of the score system (administrative, diplomatic and military). Feel free if you want to contribute to something else.

 

[Kewlkhat]

I am grateful for the contribution. But to register better here, can you develop your statement a little more? You prefer the bonus with your “harsh” penalty over “conciliatory”. And what do you think of the neutral position where you do not earn the bonus, but does not lead to such a penalty. But before your answer, let me remind you here that your technological advancement has strength in the ranking in all three areas of the score system (administrative, diplomatic and military). Feel free if you want to contribute to something else.

if you look at the difference between the two positions, harsh gives you:
-20 opinion of heretics
+2% missionary strength
-25% institution spread

while concillatory gives you:
+10 opinion of heretics
+25% improve relations
-5% heretic missionary strength

I like the missionary strength bonus, because:
1. the age of objective to convert i think 10 provinces
2. the papal influence

using missionaries to convert land, can get papal points, so you can effectively turn money into legitimacy/more money/manpower/etc.

 

[Kauê II]

if you look at the difference between the two positions, harsh gives you:
-20 opinion of heretics
+2% missionary strength
-25% institution spread

while concillatory gives you:
+10 opinion of heretics
+25% improve relations
-5% heretic missionary strength

I like the missionary strength bonus, because:
1. the age of objective to convert i think 10 provinces
2. the papal influence

using missionaries to convert land, can get papal points, so you can effectively turn money into legitimacy/more money/manpower/etc.

Grateful for the availability to answer me. But what I asked for in relation to the standard side, which is neutral. I also left room for you to contribute in another point that you find relevant. I did not take a position on your statement that you had previously made.

 

[Kewlkhat]

Grateful for the availability to answer me. But what I asked for in relation to the standard side, which is neutral. I also left room for you to contribute in another point that you find relevant. I did not take a position on your statement that you had previously made.

i never take neutral as it gives no upside. so choose is between the others

 

[Zhetone]

mechanics for "conciliatory" should not involve excising biblical texts, the fake "translation of the bible" myth, anything to do with sola fide - because none of these were possibilities. the Church was not going to stop including the so-called apocrypha, it wasn't going to concede sola fide. the biblical translations as I said is a fake issue because there were already approved translations into vulgate languages

conciliatory stances should involve tolerating religious diversity rather than conforming Catholicism to Lutheran theology. it's just nonsense and such a stupid, badly-designed mechanic

 

[Kauê II]

mechanics for "conciliatory" should not involve excising biblical texts, the fake "translation of the bible" myth, anything to do with sola fide - because none of these were possibilities. the Church was not going to stop including the so-called apocrypha, it wasn't going to concede sola fide. the biblical translations as I said is a fake issue because there were already approved translations into vulgate languages

conciliatory stances should involve tolerating religious diversity rather than conforming Catholicism to Lutheran theology. it's just nonsense and such a stupid, badly-designed mechanic

I appreciate the contribution. The current mechanics of conciliatory stances are geared in the sense that you have stated “conforming Catholicism to Lutheran theology” and are geared even to explore anti-Catholic myths or prejudices instead of reality. Paradox herself explained in the forum that the “conciliatory” works towards “you are willing to reform the Catholic faith to address the issues that the Protestant movement has" [1]. This does not make sense, remembering that Catholic Reformation is Counter-Reformation itself. If we follow a Catholic perspective, Protestant Reformation cannot be called reform. In this sense [2]:

“... Luther did not introduce a real reform movement. He made the reigning abuses a pretext to leave the Church at the same time, instead of staying in it and trying to convert his relapsed members into better ways. Furthermore, he maintained many of his own abuses, merely seeking to justify them by denying that they were wrong, and further sanctioned further waivers of the norms of true Christianity ”.



I thought it would be better to take advantage of this mechanics by directing it to the other focus of the DLC, which is the Emperor of the Holy Empire. Here we can represent the emperor's effort in dealing with the new religion along with his concern for the integrity of the empire. It would also serve as a prelude to the Council's future presence in the game.



[1] https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/threads/eu4-development-diary-24th-of-march-2020.1364351/



[2] https://cleofas.com.br/a-reforma-luterana/ (in portuguese)

 

[Ninking]

I've noticed that the various options lack ai_will_do:s, unlike other decisions in 00_religion.txt. I believe this might make them default to ai_will_do:s of 1, and therefore be totally random and not relate at all to the conditions of the faith or the Papal state. I'd really like to see it be more dynamic, if such's the case.

 

[Kauê II]

I've noticed that the various options lack ai_will_do:s, unlike other decisions in 00_religion.txt. I believe this might make them default to ai_will_do:s of 1, and therefore be totally random and not relate at all to the conditions of the faith or the Papal state. I'd really like to see it be more dynamic, if such's the case.

I reflected their demand for flexibility in the expanded mechanical work of Catholicism, as well as Trento in general and commented here:

Council of Trent

Currently council of Trent is I think unfinished and unpolished. I would like to propose some changes. 1.Currently each stance on one of four topics adds permanent modfiers to relations with each heretic religion regardless of fact, that this...

forum.paradoxplaza.com

 

[Kauê II]

Dear contributors and interested parties, I had abandoned this topic that I should certainly have resumed after Tinto lanced the excelent patch 1.32 where addition to having made a small review of the Council of Trent and wast mitigated the penalty of the modifier "Opinion of heretics", also improved catholicism in general. However, I believe that a related matter should be registered here where I commented the following[1]:

Ogele said:
With the mission “Papal Embassy” you gain another event which will make your capital into a seat for a Cardinal.
Finally, if you complete the mission “Compete with the Swedes”, “Trade Presence in Lübeck” and “Papal Embassy” the following event fires:
View attachment 840009
The Catholic Plutocracy is a Theocratic version of the Merchant Republic, but with one additional bonus: you are allowed to sell Indulgences to other Catholic countries!*

*Cannot sell Indulgences to countries which are at war with you or are subjects. You need at least 75 Papal Influence. You cannot sell an Indulgence to the Pope himself.


Note: The name of this government reform is a placeholder, and we appreciate suggestions for a better sounding name.
While the Catholic Plutocracy focuses on earning money through the selling of Indulgences, the Theocratic Plutocracy is more concerned with spreading the Reformation. As such, the trade policy “Propagate Religion” will be available to you to convert Catholic provinces to your state religion - as long as you are either Hussite, Protestant, Reformed or Anglican.





Click to expand...

Here I see a possible major setback in the game depending on how the developers approach the issue. For the ability to sell indulgences should not exist after the Council of Trent ends. And this, regardless of whether it follows the historical path ("harsh") where the decree of indulgences against such abuses in the Church would come into force. In fact, in Luther's 95 theses, he follows a similar tone in the sense of condemning abuses, but defending the Catholic doctrine of indulgences. Although others deal with what I said, I remember that the 71st thesis states that "Whoever speaks against the truth of apostolic indulgences, let him be excommunicated and cursed". Neither does makes sense such mechanics, in the strange "conciliatory" way where apostasy occurs and the Protestant Sola is adopted. Posteriorly the focus should be on the Catholic Reformation, where the performance of the holy orders inserted in the Golden Century stands out, which I don't know the reason for being limited to the Iberian nations . Being that such a restriction, limits both the value of DLC and a future development of such mechanics, such as the appearance of the Catholic saint in the game Louis-Marie Grignion de Montfort and the congregations he founds that take place during the game's time. From the little that has been posted here, I can say that this idea of Catholic plutocracy in the game seems even more complicated to me" .

[1] Post #163 in :
• https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...17th-of-may-2022.1526140/page-9#post-28292824

 

[Kauê II]

Post #167 *:

As I didn't get a response, I don't know if I should develop what I posted earlier for further clarification. Just in case, I will return to the ideas I mentioned earlier here[1]. First of all, I must remember that we already have the possible formation of a Catholic plutocracy in the game that I think is better developed in the game, via an event that is Venice via an event that is the one of “The Dominican Inquisition”. There the player can choose the “Christian First” option receiving permanently permanent papal influence and mission strength bonuses, although he is also penalized with the tolerance of heretics penalty. First, I commented here about this “innovation” of the Catholic plutocracy of Riga:

“Here I see a possible major setback in the game depending on how the developers approach the issue. For the ability to sell indulgences should not exist after the Council of Trent ends. And this, regardless of whether it follows the historical path ("harsh") where the decree of indulgences against such abuses in the Church would come into force. In fact, in Luther's 95 theses, he follows a similar tone in the sense of condemning abuses, but defending the Catholic doctrine of indulgences. Although others deal with what I said, I remember that the 71st thesis states that "Whoever speaks against the truth of apostolic indulgences, let him be excommunicated and cursed". Neither does makes sense such mechanics, in the strange "conciliatory" way where apostasy occurs and the Protestant Sola is adopted. Posteriorly the focus should be on the Catholic Reformation, where the performance of the holy orders inserted in the Golden Century stands out, which I don't know the reason for being limited to the Iberian nations . Being that such a restriction, limits both the value of DLC and a future development of such mechanics, such as the appearance of the Catholic saint in the game Louis-Marie Grignion de Montfort and the congregations he founds that take place during the game's time. From the little that has been posted here, I can say that this idea of Catholic plutocracy in the game seems even more complicated to me”.

Perhaps I should directly quote Luther's 50th and 51st theses here:

"50th) Christians should be taught that, if the Pope knew about the extortions made by the indulgence preachers, he would rather burn down St. Peter's basilica to ashes than build it with the skin, flesh and bones of his sheep.

51) Christians must be taught that the Pope would be willing – as is his duty – to give his money to those many from whom some indulgence preachers slyly extract money, even if it were necessary to sell the St. Peter's Basilica."

As for the Trent Decree of Indulgences which I have just mentioned before. I put it here and highlight the last paragraph:

"
CONCERNING INDULGENCES

THIRD DECREE

On the fourth day of December.

Whereas the power of conferring Indulgences was granted by Christ to the Church; and she has, even in the most ancient times, used the said power, delivered unto her of God; the sacred holy Synod teaches, and enjoins, that the use of Indulgences, for the Christian people most salutary, and approved of by the authority of sacred Councils, is to be retained in the Church; and It condemns with anathema those who either assert, that they are useless ; or who deny that there is in the Church the power of granting them. In granting them, however, It desires that, in accordance with the ancient and approved custom in the Church, moderation be observed; lest, by excessive facility, ecclesastical discipline be enervated. And being desirous that the abuses which have crept therein, and by occasion of which this honourable name of Indulgences is blasphemed by heretics, be amended and corrected, It ordains generally by this decree, that all evil gains for the obtaining thereof,-whence a most prolific cause of abuses amongst the Christian people has been derived,-be wholly abolished.

But as regards the other abuses which have proceeded from superstition, ignorance, irreverence, or from what soever other source, since, by reason of the manifold corruptions in the places and provinces where the said abuses are committed, they cannot conveniently be specially prohibited; It commands all bishops, diligently to collect, each in his own church, all abuses of this nature, and to report them in the first provincial Synod; that, after having been reviewed by the opinions of the other bishops also, they may forthwith be referred to the Sovereign Roman Pontiff, by whose authority and prudence that which may be expedient for the universal Church will be ordained; that this the gift of holy Indulgences may be dispensed to all the faithful, piously, holily, and incorruptly".

As for the protestant or “reformed” plutocracy, I intend to return to this subject later.

[1] Check the posts made here: #163 and #164.


* https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...17th-of-may-2022.1526140/page-9#post-28323660 :

 

[MadDoctorScientist]

I wrote this thread on Steam some time ago. May be of interest.

 

[Kauê II]

Comment #168 in "Europa Universalis IV - Development Diary 17th of May 2022" (https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...17th-of-may-2022.1526140/page-9#post-28330407) :

• https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...-diary-17th-of-may-2022.1526140/post-28330407

MrSnert said:
Simply not true, as evident by the fact that indulgences are a thing within the Catholic Church to this very day! It condemned the abuses, but… well let’s just go straight to the source:

’DECREE CONCERNING INDULGENCES.
Whereas the power of conferring Indulgences was granted by Christ to the Church; and she has, even in the most ancient times, used the said power, delivered unto her of God; the sacred holy Synod teaches, and enjoins, that the use of Indulgences, for the Christian people most salutary, and approved of by the authority of sacred Councils, is to be retained in the Church; and It condemns with anathema those who either assert, that they are useless; or who deny that there is in the Church the power of granting them. In granting them, however, It desires that, in accordance with the ancient and approved custom in the Church, moderation be observed; lest, by excessive facility, ecclesastical discipline be enervated. And being desirous that the abuses which have crept therein, and by occasion of which this honourable name of Indulgences is blasphemed by heretics, be amended and corrected, It ordains generally by this decree, that all evil gains for the obtaining thereof,--whence a most prolific cause of abuses amongst the Christian people has been derived,--be wholly abolished. But as regards the other abuses which have proceeded from superstition, ignorance, irreverence, or from what soever other source, since, by reason of the manifold corruptions in the places and provinces where the said abuses are committed, they cannot conveniently be specially prohibited; It commands all bishops, diligently to collect, each in his own church, all abuses of this nature, and to report them in the first provincial Synod; that, after having been reviewed by the opinions of the other bishops also, they may forthwith be referred to the Sovereign Roman Pontiff, by whose authority and prudence that which may be expedient for the universal Church will be ordained; that this the gift of holy Indulgences may be dispensed to all the faithful, piously, holily, and incorruptly.’
Click to expand...

Zhetone said:
none of those things would be an actual reason for indulgences, they're things Riga can build in the game. what I mean is what projects are the indulgences for in the in-game universe that are comparable to St. Peter's?


those abuses being the sales of indulgences in Germany, I never said indulgences no longer exist. but sending ducats to Riga for indulgences is nonsense

I hadn't seen that anyone had already cited the decree I mentioned. Strange is that it seems that they tried to use this font in the opposite sense of what I argued here later. Zhetone is absolutely correct in his questions. One thing is the doctrine of indulgences, another is the abuse of the sale of indulgences. As I explained earlier, Trent is not opposed to the Catholic doctrine of indulgences, just as not even Luther was opposed in his 95 Theses.
Another thing is the sale of indulgences, which is really an abuse. Due to the confusion, let's go back to the basics of catholicism and for that I will now rely on the catechism of Saint Pius X which is a summary of the Roman Catechism of Trent[1]:

“Indulgences

124 Q. What is an Indulgence?
A. An Indulgence is the remission of the temporal punishment due on account of our sins which have been already pardoned as far as their guilt is concerned — a remission accorded by the Church outside the sacrament of Penance.

125 Q. From whom has the Church received the power to grant Indulgences?
A. The Church has received the power to grant Indulgences from Jesus Christ.

126 Q. In what way does the Church by means of Indulgences remit this temporal punishment?
A. The Church by means of Indulgences remits this temporal punishment by applying to us the superabundant merits of Jesus Christ, of the Blessed Virgin and of the Saints, which constitute what is known as the Treasure of the Church.

127 Q. Who has the power to grant Indulgences?
A. The Pope alone has the power to grant Indulgences in the whole Church, and the Bishop in his own diocese, according to the faculty given him by the Pope.

128 Q. How many kinds of Indulgences are there?
A. Indulgences are of two kinds: plenary and partial.

129 Q. What is a plenary Indulgence?
A. A plenary Indulgence is that by which the whole temporal punishment due to our sins is remitted. Hence, if one were to die after having gained such an Indulgence, he would go straight to Heaven, being, as he is, perfectly exempt from the pains of Purgatory.

130 Q. What is a partial Indulgence?
A. A partial Indulgence is that by which is remitted only a part of the temporal punishment due to our sins.

131 Q. Why does the Church grant Indulgences?
A. In granting Indulgences the Church intends to aid our incapacity to expiate all the temporal punishment in this world, by enabling us to obtain by means of works of piety and Christian charity that which in the first ages Christians gained by the rigour of Canonical penances...”

In Christian antiquity, after the believer confessed his sin to the priest, the priest conferred on him some penance, that is, a practice that would serve to repair the temporal punishment of sin, since the eternal punishment had already been granted by the sacrament of confession. After the penance was completed, the indulgence was granted by the Church, since she has all the spiritual treasures of Christ and the Saints, being able to dispense it to the other faithful, since we are all members of one another and the good done to one affects the other (cf. Eph 4:25; 1Cor 6:15; 12:12, 26).
The problem is that not all people were able to do penance, especially the physically handicapped and the elderly. Therefore, the Church from the century XI allowed these people to receive indulgences. In order to do so, like all others, they would have to confess their sins, then the indulgence would be granted through financial aid for Church works or for the poor, since such help was also a work of charity. A very different practice is the sale of indulgences, for it is not possible to sell spiritual things. In fact, this sin is called Simony and, as we can see in the compendium of the catechism[2], it is contrary to the first commandment:

“445. What does God prohibit by his command, “You shall not have other gods before me” (Exodus 20:2)?

2110-2128
2138-2140

This commandment forbids:

• ...Irreligion which is evidenced: in tempting God by word or deed; in sacrilege, which profanes sacred persons or sacred things, above all the Eucharist; and in simony, which involves the buying or selling of spiritual things...”

Now that we've covered the basics of the basics, let's get back to the context of the Protestant Reformation. Leo X's bull promulgated the indulgence for anyone who contributed a voluntary offering for the construction of St. Peter's Basilica*.

. Another issue is Tetzel who was accused by Luther of abusing his power by selling indulgences. Now we can return to the Council with the aforementioned decree of indulgences of Trent, which even opposes the abuse of the practice of selling indulgences. Going further into Trento it is commanded that:

“As regards the indulgences, or other spiritual graces, of which the faithful of Christ ought not on this account to be deprived, It decrees, that they are henceforth to be published to the people at the due times, by the Ordinaries of the places, aided by two members of the Chapter; to whom also power is given to gather faithfully the alms, and the succours of charity which are offered them, without their receiving any remuneration whatsoever; that so all men may at length truly understand, that these heavenly treasures of the Church are administered, not for gain, but for godliness.”[3].

I find it interesting to mention that Pope Saint Pius V in 1567 definitively canceled all concessions of indulgences, involving any fees, or other financial transactions. There is no pope who is a greater reference of the counter-reformation than this saint!

​

[1] https://www.ewtn.com/catholicism/library/catechism-of-st-pius-x-1286

[2] https://www.vatican.va/archive/compendium_ccc/documents/archive_2005_compendium-ccc_en.html

[3] Sess. XXI, c. ix

*P.S: Here I had posted that it was for the "cathedral". Upon reviewing it later I felt I should correct it.

 

[Kauê II]

Comment #169 in "Europa Universalis IV - Development Diary 17th of May 2022":


In the rush to elaborate the last answer and now revising it I saw that I expressed myself badly when I stated "As I explained earlier, Trent is not opposed to the Catholic doctrine of indulgences, just as not even Luther was opposed in his 95 Theses".

What I wanted was to resume my posting from post #163 :
" Here I see a possible major setback in the game depending on how the developers approach the issue. For the ability to sell indulgences should not exist after the Council of Trent ends. And this, regardless of whether it follows the historical path ("harsh") where the decree of indulgences against such abuses in the Church would come into force. In fact, in Luther's 95 theses, he follows a similar tone in the sense of condemning abuses, but defending the Catholic doctrine of indulgences. Although others deal with what I said, I remember that the 71st thesis states that "Whoever speaks against the truth of apostolic indulgences, let him be excommunicated and cursed"....

My mistake in expressing it badly can lead the reader to think that Luther in his 95 theses defended the same Catholic concept, but this is not true since it can be pointed out that the new Lutheran concept of justification is already embedded there, which is incompatible with the classical theology. But it must be recognized that in his theses at various points he defends the Catholic Church from much of the nonsense that is spread today on the subject of indulgences. For this reason, in post #167, I also cited other theses directly:

"50th) Christians should be taught that, if the Pope knew about the extortions made by the indulgence preachers, he would rather burn down St. Peter's basilica to ashes than build it with the skin, flesh and bones of his sheep.

51) Christians must be taught that the Pope would be willing – as is his duty – to give his money to those many from whom some indulgence preachers slyly extract money, even if it were necessary to sell the St. Peter's Basilica."

Sorry for the confusion and thank you for your attention.

 

[moscal]

In period between "end of western schism" and "start of reformation" in CRC were three the most important branches "what next with church".

1. Papalism - strengthening the central power of the papacy
2. Conciliarism - council is central point of power in church
3. Ceasaropapism - emperor of HRE is leader of church

In alt-historical scenarios we should have separate way of evolution CRC to other function of CRC. Problem eg. of position emperor or HRE as head of church was more important than "do priest's can marry"

 

[MadDoctorScientist]

In alt-historical scenarios we should have separate way of evolution CRC to other function of CRC. Problem eg. of position emperor or HRE as head of church was more important than "do priest's can marry"

When the decisions list was first revealed, I assumed they had went through the list of things the council discussed over the decades and picked the ones that are more divergent from the Protestant branch, without necessarily considering centuries of theology leady to the decades-long council.

And underestimated how some decisions would upset the more pious and would-be pious players.

 

[MadDoctorScientist]

1. Papalism - strengthening the central power of the papacy
2. Conciliarism - council is central point of power in church
3. Ceasaropapism - emperor of HRE is leader of church

As in the govnerment reform for the Papal States/Kingdom of God?

It must be considered how nations outside the Empire felt about the Emperor/Empire, what happens to the Holy Church if the Empire is dismantled, if the Emperor gets excomunicated by event or similar, and such.

Edit: it should be mentioned that I try to avoid an early version of the Lateran Treaty/Lateran Pacts, because whomever held Rome and/or the Church as "private property" should incur the wrath of every other Catholic nation in the world, mainly the theocracies that could be asked to grant a province to the Papacy.
Making it too easy for either the French, Austrians or assorted Italians alike to have direct control over the church would be an issue.

Also, I really wanted to insinuate an early garibaldi in Uruguay/Southern Brazil, albeit he fits more in IckyVicky than EU.