Reverse Comandos

[R1ob7]

After watching this and the Japan www one of the big issues with exploiting a break thru is the number of divisions you can spare to exploit it. But after watching the end where Daniel was spamming cheap units I thought you could use that technique in reverse. Spam a bunch of cheap units with no traing or equipment to run amock behind enemy lines. Basicly the idea is to force units to have to chase them down. If you can have divisions as small as one or two battalions you can have 5-10 divisions at the cost of one just to cause choas in the enemy rear just like commandos just without traing or guns.

 

[Blijert]

It sounds like a good idea, but it will likely only work in very specific situations.
Apart from the enemy having just one 'proper' division to cut yours off (and with this AI they prob. will) the main problems must be supply and organisation;

• Will their base Org not be very low? Will they get stacking or other penalties from trying to break out together?
• How many supplies will they consume anyway? Will they refuse to move before they have supplies? At the least they will be slower as mentioned in Stream
• Won't they take more manpower losses because of unconcentrated strength when fighting, needing more supplies to reinforce?

That being said though, if you have manpower to spare and you move them along with your main spearhead, after a major breaktrough they might be of use as early occupation forces. What springs to mind are the Russians trying to reinforce and resupply partizan troops before big offensives.

So yes, if desperate or when having too much manpower and proper opportunity, but I would prefer an armored spearhead anyday!

 

[R1ob7]

The idea isn't that they attack they follow behind your armor spearhead and if and when your armor creates an opening I.e. an empty province you just send these guys to just run through andvgrab territory in the enemy rear basiclybjust create havoc they aren't supused to be in combat just cheap troops to try and grab as much land as poisbile until they are chased down.

 

[Viktor_Vertex]

He is saying that they don't fight, they take territory. For example you could also paradrop 20 divisions of 2 brigades of paratroopers(equal to 2 'real' divisions) and take a lot of land very quickly, messing with enemy supply and forcing them to chase your troops down, which might not be easy, since your microdivisions might be of the same, or greater speed than the enemy.

 

[Zaku]

This tactics could only work as long as your enemy doesn't have reserves and doesn't garrison their important provinces. I think it would be pretty easy to counter in MP, but you could maybe exploit the AI with it. I just don't see the point of doing so in a single player game.

He is saying that they don't fight, they take territory. For example you could also paradrop 20 divisions of 2 brigades of paratroopers(equal to 2 'real' divisions) and take a lot of land very quickly, messing with enemy supply and forcing them to chase your troops down, which might not be easy, since your microdivisions might be of the same, or greater speed than the enemy.

You need air superiority to do that, and even then you won't be able to supply them so they will just die out in attrition. Plus a single division of motorized unit could wipe them out in a minute.

 

[Aythne]

Pretty sure supply affects division movement speed. So all the enemy has to do is cut you off and you'll start grinding to a halt soon after. With the importance of manpower I don't think such tactics will be viable as more than just distracting/annoying your enemy in multiplayer.

 

[JerkyJerry]

I Agree with Aythne & Zaku.
With regards to supplies. Could a paratrooper in unoccupied enemy territory as was described; use partizan help to attain supplies? Could the paratroopers 'find' supplies in transit from city to front line and use the enemy supplies he 'finds' to continue to move?
Can they do those things now? Should they be able to?

 

[Viktor_Vertex]

This tactics could only work as long as your enemy doesn't have reserves and doesn't garrison their important provinces. I think it would be pretty easy to counter in MP, but you could maybe exploit the AI with it. I just don't see the point of doing so in a single player game.



You need air superiority to do that, and even then you won't be able to supply them so they will just die out in attrition. Plus a single division of motorized unit could wipe them out in a minute.

Dont they gain supply when occupying a whole region ? And no, a motorized unit couldn't wipe them out in a minute, since it has to fight them, chase them when retreating (territory under their control) and repeat 20 times. The point of this tactic is not for your units to survive , its to massively disturb enemy supply. I was trying to explain the principle behind the tactic

 

[Aythne]

Dont they gain supply when occupying a whole region ? And no, a motorized unit couldn't wipe them out in a minute, since it has to fight them, chase them when retreating (territory under their control) and repeat 20 times. The point of this tactic is not for your units to survive , its to massively disturb enemy supply. I was trying to explain the principle behind the tactic

From what I understand, you don't gain supply upon taking regions/major cities/ports, but rather supply throughput. When connected to your main network the difference is semantic, but it prevents cheese of this sort (and/or of the paratrooper variety) and amplifies the importance of taking ports/control of the seaways.

 

[Zaku]

Dont they gain supply when occupying a whole region ? And no, a motorized unit couldn't wipe them out in a minute, since it has to fight them, chase them when retreating (territory under their control) and repeat 20 times. The point of this tactic is not for your units to survive , its to massively disturb enemy supply. I was trying to explain the principle behind the tactic

They could only gain supply from cities and they will be garrisoned in an MP match(and the AI should garrison them as well).
You can't retreat units if they are being overran. Also if you take a province where the enemy is retreating they will be wiped out.

As I said maybe you can distrupt the the ai this way, but not an experienced player.
Even so, if you really want to willingly put units in an pocket you are welcome to do so.

 

[R1ob7]

Yea but if its the equivalent of only 1 or two division manpower and no equipment and you keep 10 division off the front for a week or two it might even though they can handle it might be the difference betweeen winning a key battle or loosing because reinforcements arrive at the front. As I said you need to think of this as commandos going into the rear to disrupt supply. Also it doesn't seem to indicate that a division is garbage unless ou engage them in combat, what may look as a massive assult of 10 or 20 divisions which will call for a response in kind because you won't know these are garbage unless you are investigating the battle screen.

 

[The Nothing]

Pretty sure supply affects division movement speed. So all the enemy has to do is cut you off and you'll start grinding to a halt soon after. With the importance of manpower I don't think such tactics will be viable as more than just distracting/annoying your enemy in multiplayer.

Even with very low supplies I have very bad memories of hunting these damn UK HQ's with Italy in Egypt. While there's still one free of enemy troops province, they can withdraw there after battle. And they can supply on your reserves. Well in HoI 4 there are no things like HQ's. And even if there were, a good bunch of air raids could wipe them out. Anyway, if some units are made to be low fuel/ressources consuming (like HoI 3 HQ's were), it could work.

It often happens to see units resistance pockets holding for a long time without supplies in HoI 3. I also did some paradrop operations deep inside enemy territory, well for big units of 4/5 paratroopers brigades it was quite supply consuming and didn't work that great (especially since it was in Afghanistan, and there were most likely very few spare supplies to steal in the province I took).

 

[Blijert]

It often happens to see units resistance pockets holding for a long time without supplies in HoI 3.

The thing about HOI4 is that AI must be better to deal with small incursions and supply has a much greater effect.
In the dev mp earlier Daniel basically just paradropped from port to port to Canada. The moment he missed a port the supply became critical his units stopped moving and were cut down right away.

Still, again I see some chances for R1ob7 ideas. If for example you invade germany as the allies. Main trust through France. Then maybe paradrop on a north german port and immediately land your 'little expendables' to cause havoc everywhere. IF they are fast enough And germany is under too much pressure to respond properly it will work.
The question remains that if you would have used a 'normal' division wouldn't that be better for taking victory points/cities and actually holding them long enough for the disruption to have any effects?

 

[alexchau]

Johan and his friend US made many naval invasions from Daniel's Germany rear but failed miserably. The only place they probably success is in Italy or Japan.

 

[R1ob7]

I was thinking of this more in land war for example you have a break out and you have 2 division that can exploit it and it will be 3 provinces before the enemy can respond at most you can only capture 6 provinces and the enemey only needsto respond with 2 divisons to tie them down to stop the advance +a force to plug the hole. Now take that same breakout with reverse comandos. Lets say you have 10 useless in combat divisions that can exploit the hole. They take all land in the three steps. To stop it out right the enemy needs to send enough units to tie them down without risk of being engulfed by the sheer numbers and surrounded. Further this can cause a lot of pressure on units at the front because supply thru put is based on the numbers of states controlled. The idea here isn't that they hold the ground but divert large number of reasourses to deal with while your front advances.