Revassalized a de jure vassal: +50% infamy!?

[travro]

I'm the HRE Kaiser. The Duke of Luxemborg was fighting against his liege (Queen of Lotharingia) during a time when I forced realm peace. He splits off from the entire realm for some reason. I've had this happen before several times where non-direct vassals will actually be granted full independence for some odd reason. I have not figured out what's causing it; I believe most of the time it has to do with enforcing realm peace.

Anyway, eventually these independent dukes or counts will often - and gladly - fall back into the empire, but what gets me is these territories I reacquire are: de jure, surrounded on all sides by my realm, and have been in my realm for decades if not over a century. And so now, the Pope and the Byzantines think it best to join the pagans against me? Because I get +50% infamy from this crap.

Look, I'm not against the D-pacts wholeheartedly (I think they need some tweaking), or shattered retreat, and I love Conclave. But this is just ridiculous.

 

[BrokenSky]

I'm the HRE Kaiser. The Duke of Luxemborg was fighting against his liege (Queen of Lotharingia) during a time when I forced realm peace. He splits off from the entire realm for some reason. I've had this happen before several times where non-direct vassals will actually be granted full independence for some odd reason. I have not figured out what's causing it; I believe most of the time it has to do with enforcing realm peace.

Anyway, eventually these independent dukes or counts will often - and gladly - fall back into the empire, but what gets me is these territories I reacquire are: de jure, surrounded on all sides by my realm, and have been in my realm for decades if not over a century. And so now, the Pope and the Byzantines think it best to join the pagans against me? Because I get +50% infamy from this crap.

Look, I'm not against the D-pacts wholeheartedly (I think they need some tweaking), or shattered retreat, and I love Conclave. But this is just ridiculous.

did you try offer vassilisation first?

Btw I agree that de-jure wars should generate almost no threat (like -90% or something).

 

[clockworkBabbag]

That's exactly what they did. Diplomatic vassalization generates threat for some reason.

That's one of the two things that needs tweaked/redone about threat. The other is that it tried too hard to not be aggressive expansion - you have one value of threat and everyone else sees the same value no matter what, as opposed to everyone else having differing opinions of you. It's what leads to the crazy defensive pact situations where the entire world thinks you're an existential threat to their way of life for no intuitive reason. Granted, it's probably not feasible to calculate threat opinions of every character in the game for everyone else, but something needs to be done to make the outcome more intuitive.

 

[Rip Off Productions]

That's exactly what they did. Diplomatic vassalization generates threat for some reason.

well I suppose that's to represent the neighboring lords going "oh sh*t, that guy just increased the size of his realm, so now if he wants to declare war on me he'll have his entire fresh army and all those new loyal vassals to back him up!"

it makes perfect sense when it happened to me when I was playing as Norse and formed Sweden and suddenly doubled in size from diplo-vassalizing the reaming De Jure territory. it made sense that my neighbors throughout Scandinavia panicked and formed a defensive pact against me.

it's just that the game doesn't expect an empire to lose then regain a bunch of it's vassals in quick succession like that glitch you experienced made happen.

 

[BrokenSky]

That's exactly what they did. Diplomatic vassalization generates threat for some reason.

Ah. I misread that then. Yeah diplovassalisation shouldn't generate threat at all IMO.

 

[Helios Panoptes]

Half threat, maybe, but none at all? I think any territorial growth should produce at least some threat.

 

[Silver Wizard]

I would suggest that it should multiply threat.

Oh, this very peaceful ruler who never made war is joined voluntarily by a friend of his? No concern of ours.

Oh, this rather aggressive ruler has a lot of people join him because they are afraid of him? Better do something about it.

 

[SaunteringLion]

Yeah, if you control all of France as Aquitaine except one province, and then say "hey, you, join up so we don't need to send in troops to crush you" should earn less threat.

I think that the level of threat it generates should be factored into the way it occurs: if you vassalize a place because your power is too high they won't refuse, that makes sense as threatening. If the place you're vassalizing has the same culture, that should generate the least threat, and if you vassalize because they have the same religion, slightly more. If it's the same religion and culture, very little threat.

 

[clockworkBabbag]

Yeah, if you control all of France as Aquitaine except one province, and then say "hey, you, join up so we don't need to send in troops to crush you" should earn less threat.

I think that the level of threat it generates should be factored into the way it occurs: if you vassalize a place because your power is too high they won't refuse, that makes sense as threatening. If the place you're vassalizing has the same culture, that should generate the least threat, and if you vassalize because they have the same religion, slightly more. If it's the same religion and culture, very little threat.

I think the only thing that should determine it is de jure. De jure lands should generate little to no threat if they voluntarily swear fealty - it is, after all, land that rightfully belongs to you, and if it's peaceful nobody should think it's much of a sign that you'd be going on a conquering spree. Land outside your de jure territories should generate threat, but less than would be generated through war. Culture/religion shouldn't be a factor, as those don't determine your "natural" de jure borders that nobody should be complaining much if you expand inside.

I do really like the idea of peaceful vassalization generating threat as some ratio of your current threat - if you're already viewed as a warmonger, any kind of expansion outside your de jure lands would be concerning. If you're peaceful, then others voluntarily swearing fealty to you shouldn't give anyone any cause to worry enough that they'd feel a need to bother with a defensive pact.

 

[Thrake]

I think the only thing that should determine it is de jure. De jure lands should generate little to no threat if they voluntarily swear fealty

You can only diplo vassalize de jure regions so there's no need for an extra rule for diplo vasalizing de jure.

Besides, you can lower your threat by granting independance, and so if you allow for no threat from vassalizing de jure rulers, then you get the cheedy abuse of land grab -> get threat -> grant independance to de jure vassals -> no threat -> diplo vassalize -> expansion free of threat

 

[clockworkBabbag]

You can only diplo vassalize de jure regions so there's no need for an extra rule for diplo vasalizing de jure.

Besides, you can lower your threat by granting independance, and so if you allow for no threat from vassalizing de jure rulers, then you get the cheedy abuse of land grab -> get threat -> grant independance to de jure vassals -> no threat -> diplo vassalize -> expansion free of threat

You totally can vassalize outside your de jure borders. They have to be at least two ranks below you, significantly weaker than you, and your culture and religion. But really, same culture/religion (or at least same group) are effectively a requirement for any vassalization, de jure or not.

And you can't grant independence to de jure vassals of your culture - and getting people not of your culture to swear fealty to you is really hard.

 

[BrokenSky]

You totally can vassalize outside your de jure borders. They have to be at least two ranks below you, significantly weaker than you, and your culture and religion. But really, same culture/religion (or at least same group) are effectively a requirement for any vassalization, de jure or not.

And you can't grant independence to de jure vassals of your culture - and getting people not of your culture to swear fealty to you is really hard.

but getting them to swear fealty then changing culture is easy.

 

[StarSword]

I would suggest that it should multiply threat.

Oh, this very peaceful ruler who never made war is joined voluntarily by a friend of his? No concern of ours.

Oh, this rather aggressive ruler has a lot of people join him because they are afraid of him? Better do something about it.

Except people of a different culture will only accept diplomatic vassalization if they have a decent opinion of you. As Irish King of Ireland I vassalized most of it easily. As Irish Emperor of Alba? Took multiple conquests and me bribing the last Anglo-Saxon holdout in Hwicce.

Diplomatic vassalization of de jure vassals should generate threat but not nearly as much as expanding beyond your titular borders.

You totally can vassalize outside your de jure borders. They have to be at least two ranks below you, significantly weaker than you, and your culture and religion. But really, same culture/religion (or at least same group) are effectively a requirement for any vassalization, de jure or not.

Actually all you need is same culture, same religion, and good opinion. As Russian Reformed Slavic King of Rus (started as Ilmenian but flipped to Russian by reforming the faith, I diplovassalized multiple Russian dukes south of me in Ruthenia.

Different culture blocks if they're not your de jure vassal, though.