Retreat Mechanic is flawed

[Nuclear Elvis]

Just bought EU4 finally, and many DLCs/Expansions, save for a select few that I may pick up later, so I'm playing the game nearly complete with only 3 expansions and a combo pack away from completion, to ensure you know that this is not a base game issue.
Playing Native Americans - where I really wanted to start, simply to see how Paradox did at putting together the dynamics of North America prior to the European settlement (some would call invasion) of the area. If you've played Native Americans, you know that the tribes are really spread out normally, with some pockets of tribes that gather together, but with the nomadic trends they are always moving.

So, I conquered a couple small tribes, made them vassals - one near modern-day San Fran, the other around US/Canadian border (WA state). I'm Navajo, around Colorado to Arizona area. I'm expanding, maybe over expanding, and some tribes come after me. I have a 10 regiment army so I think I'm ok with just 4-5K coming at me. Due to significant morale differences, one of their small armies beats my 10k army (now at 7k) and I think, ok, no problem, will see the typical Paradox games Retreat and then get back in the Fight.

Nope - Paradox Game Developers think a Retreat from battle is a cross-continental excursion, and send my big army marching forcibly in retreat, all the way to San Fran, over 1,000 miles away.

What kind of craziness is that? Sure, I had a vassal at that location, not sieged, safe harbor (literally), but I have 3x provinces in my core Navajo tribal area, 2 of which were not being sieged. Why wouldn't my army logically just retreat to the safe tribal province next to the fight, or even the Province just one more away, to regroup? After all, that's where the tribe is living!!! C'mon Paradox, you may think this dynamic you created works ok, but you probably coded it for the tight-knit locations of Europe and probably didn't play-test this one out.

There is no basis in logic or history or any military history, that justifies having Retreat actions of a large army move thousands of miles away in a forced retreat.

If you do update this game, you should hard-code in something for Tribes, at a minimum, that the Retreat doesn't ever point away from the tribe's home provinces, and even if those are blocked from access, there should be no more than a 3x Province retreat from a fight (which even then is illogical, to retreat 300+ miles away, but that's better than thousands of miles away).

 

[Vin55]

War is very flawed in eu4 just learn how to abuse them and bash the ai ^^. But yeah it can get quit stupid. But you also can see how bloody those wars are and how quick your amies move. Nothing is really up to scale, but u still get loads of empire building and fun out of it. Just dont assume to much out of the mechanics, they are at best swallow and not too deep. But the dice roal is the best thing, if you roll 3 000 in a roal...

 

[Cancerofthehead]

You can choose to retreat earlier to avoid that issue entirely.

But longer retreats with a shattered army are generally better retreating just one or two provinces is quite likely to lead to another loss or stackwipe.

 

[Nuclear Elvis]

@Cancerofthehead That's what a Retreat from Battle is, though - it's getting out of the Battle, not getting out of the region, and especially not getting out of the continent. Retreats can be pursued, and that's a Tactical play that seems missing as result here. More speed/Cavalry - more pursuit capability, so you should have that risk/reward factored in. I'm actually stunned that the tactical play has been changed in EU4 to provide this Sci-Fi Retreat capability. Consider - you get a Force Field surrounding your middle ages armies that Retreat for a thousand miles, without any damage to them, no natives rising up along the way - heck, maybe there's Aliens with Tractor Beams just hovering them along as they Retreat. When I did arrive all the way in San Fran, then it's a normal move to get all the way back, through about 10 different provinces, so that's a Gauntlet run that I got attacked about 4 times from the small 1k Natives that were aggressive. Setting this situation up is also why this retreat mechanic is just flat out a bad dynamic in this game, and I hope the Paradox Dev's give this a serious look.

Like another player here said in a parallel thread to this (because I'm not the only one noticing this Retreat mechanic madness) -- give us options like in the Crusader Kings series, where you the player in the starting setup of the game, in Options, could choose if retreating armies only travel 1 province away, or have this "safe zone" retreat in play. I would also argue that the game's AI is failing to recognize Tribal dynamics also - Natives in a tribe, with a province full of tribe members -- well that's where you would retreat to, not a thousand miles away. Heck, even if you intended to move out a thousand miles in a Nomadic move as a tribe - you'd still go back to your family in the tribal HQs/provinces and everyone packs up quickly and moves (which nomads did quite well back then).

So I think there's a 2-part change needed - the core dynamics for Retreating, and the Natives systems that should result in retreats to tribal provinces unless they're sieged.

 

[Cancerofthehead]

@Cancerofthehead That's what a Retreat from Battle is, though - it's getting out of the Battle, not getting out of the region, and especially not getting out of the continent. Retreats can be pursued, and that's a Tactical play that seems missing as result here. More speed/Cavalry - more pursuit capability, so you should have that risk/reward factored in. I'm actually stunned that the tactical play has been changed in EU4 to provide this Sci-Fi Retreat capability. Consider - you get a Force Field surrounding your middle ages armies that Retreat for a thousand miles, without any damage to them, no natives rising up along the way - heck, maybe there's Aliens with Tractor Beams just hovering them along as they Retreat. When I did arrive all the way in San Fran, then it's a normal move to get all the way back, through about 10 different provinces, so that's a Gauntlet run that I got attacked about 4 times from the small 1k Natives that were aggressive. Setting this situation up is also why this retreat mechanic is just flat out a bad dynamic in this game, and I hope the Paradox Dev's give this a serious look.

Like another player here said in a parallel thread to this (because I'm not the only one noticing this Retreat mechanic madness) -- give us options like in the Crusader Kings series, where you the player in the starting setup of the game, in Options, could choose if retreating armies only travel 1 province away, or have this "safe zone" retreat in play. I would also argue that the game's AI is failing to recognize Tribal dynamics also - Natives in a tribe, with a province full of tribe members -- well that's where you would retreat to, not a thousand miles away. Heck, even if you intended to move out a thousand miles in a Nomadic move as a tribe - you'd still go back to your family in the tribal HQs/provinces and everyone packs up quickly and moves (which nomads did quite well back then).

So I think there's a 2-part change needed - the core dynamics for Retreating, and the Natives systems that should result in retreats to tribal provinces unless they're sieged.

You would need to change the combat mechanics if you want armies to only retreat one or two provinces. Otherwise every battle will all but guarantee a stack wipe.

 

[Vin55]

Which mostly happend in real life ^^ anyways. But the ai would just loose a war asap, they are not good enough with amassing armies..

 

[Battlex]

@Cancerofthehead That's what a Retreat from Battle is, though - it's getting out of the Battle, not getting out of the region, and especially not getting out of the continent. Retreats can be pursued, and that's a Tactical play that seems missing as result here. More speed/Cavalry - more pursuit capability, so you should have that risk/reward factored in. I'm actually stunned that the tactical play has been changed in EU4 to provide this Sci-Fi Retreat capability. Consider - you get a Force Field surrounding your middle ages armies that Retreat for a thousand miles, without any damage to them, no natives rising up along the way - heck, maybe there's Aliens with Tractor Beams just hovering them along as they Retreat. When I did arrive all the way in San Fran, then it's a normal move to get all the way back, through about 10 different provinces, so that's a Gauntlet run that I got attacked about 4 times from the small 1k Natives that were aggressive. Setting this situation up is also why this retreat mechanic is just flat out a bad dynamic in this game, and I hope the Paradox Dev's give this a serious look.

Like another player here said in a parallel thread to this (because I'm not the only one noticing this Retreat mechanic madness) -- give us options like in the Crusader Kings series, where you the player in the starting setup of the game, in Options, could choose if retreating armies only travel 1 province away, or have this "safe zone" retreat in play. I would also argue that the game's AI is failing to recognize Tribal dynamics also - Natives in a tribe, with a province full of tribe members -- well that's where you would retreat to, not a thousand miles away. Heck, even if you intended to move out a thousand miles in a Nomadic move as a tribe - you'd still go back to your family in the tribal HQs/provinces and everyone packs up quickly and moves (which nomads did quite well back then).

So I think there's a 2-part change needed - the core dynamics for Retreating, and the Natives systems that should result in retreats to tribal provinces unless they're sieged.

Cavalry used to speed you up, and cannons slow you down, but they standardised it a few patches ago.
Turning off shattered retreat would help, but AI will also more easily be stack wiped then, which along with the removal of a Fort in every province would make conquest even easier. Horde gov and some national ideas increase movement speed but its typically standardised now so manoeuvre pips is the only affecting factor

 

[Cancerofthehead]

Which mostly happend in real life ^^ anyways. But the ai would just loose a war asap, they are not good enough with amassing armies..

Quite often armies retreated and regrouped for future battles. But even if it would be historical, it would be awful for gameplay.

 

[Cancerofthehead]

Cavalry used to speed you up, and cannons slow you down, but they standardised it a few patches ago.
Turning off shattered retreat would help, but AI will also more easily be stack wiped then, which along with the removal of a Fort in every province would make conquest even easier. Horde gov and some national ideas increase movement speed but its typically standardised now so manoeuvre pips is the only affecting factor

The AI is incompetent with movement speed. You can use scorched earth on some mountains to annihilate the AI as they don’t understand their armies will take longer to arrive.

 

[ImAdrian]

It is common in games to sacrifice realism for a better gameplay experience. If you retreated only 1-2 provinces, sure, it would be more realistic, but you would also lose the war instantly (because the enemy army would stackwipe you at low morale). That would get frustrating quickly, and you would blame the game for it.

By the way, as someone has already said, you can retreat right before losing the battle, and it will go to the province of your choice.

 

[EarlKonrad]

Cavalry used to speed you up, and cannons slow you down, but they standardised it a few patches ago.
[...]

You mean more than a decade ago.

Cavalry - Europa Universalis 3 Wiki

eu3.paradoxwikis.com

 

[EarlKonrad]

Just bought EU4 finally, and many DLCs/Expansions, save for a select few that I may pick up later, so I'm playing the game nearly complete with only 3 expansions and a combo pack away from completion, to ensure you know that this is not a base game issue.
Playing Native Americans - where I really wanted to start, simply to see how Paradox did at putting together the dynamics of North America prior to the European settlement (some would call invasion) of the area. If you've played Native Americans, you know that the tribes are really spread out normally, with some pockets of tribes that gather together, but with the nomadic trends they are always moving.

So, I conquered a couple small tribes, made them vassals - one near modern-day San Fran, the other around US/Canadian border (WA state). I'm Navajo, around Colorado to Arizona area. I'm expanding, maybe over expanding, and some tribes come after me. I have a 10 regiment army so I think I'm ok with just 4-5K coming at me. Due to significant morale differences, one of their small armies beats my 10k army (now at 7k) and I think, ok, no problem, will see the typical Paradox games Retreat and then get back in the Fight.

Nope - Paradox Game Developers think a Retreat from battle is a cross-continental excursion, and send my big army marching forcibly in retreat, all the way to San Fran, over 1,000 miles away.

What kind of craziness is that? Sure, I had a vassal at that location, not sieged, safe harbor (literally), but I have 3x provinces in my core Navajo tribal area, 2 of which were not being sieged. Why wouldn't my army logically just retreat to the safe tribal province next to the fight, or even the Province just one more away, to regroup? After all, that's where the tribe is living!!! C'mon Paradox, you may think this dynamic you created works ok, but you probably coded it for the tight-knit locations of Europe and probably didn't play-test this one out.

There is no basis in logic or history or any military history, that justifies having Retreat actions of a large army move thousands of miles away in a forced retreat.

If you do update this game, you should hard-code in something for Tribes, at a minimum, that the Retreat doesn't ever point away from the tribe's home provinces, and even if those are blocked from access, there should be no more than a 3x Province retreat from a fight (which even then is illogical, to retreat 300+ miles away, but that's better than thousands of miles away).

@Cancerofthehead That's what a Retreat from Battle is, though - it's getting out of the Battle, not getting out of the region, and especially not getting out of the continent. Retreats can be pursued, and that's a Tactical play that seems missing as result here. More speed/Cavalry - more pursuit capability, so you should have that risk/reward factored in. I'm actually stunned that the tactical play has been changed in EU4 to provide this Sci-Fi Retreat capability. Consider - you get a Force Field surrounding your middle ages armies that Retreat for a thousand miles, without any damage to them, no natives rising up along the way - heck, maybe there's Aliens with Tractor Beams just hovering them along as they Retreat. When I did arrive all the way in San Fran, then it's a normal move to get all the way back, through about 10 different provinces, so that's a Gauntlet run that I got attacked about 4 times from the small 1k Natives that were aggressive. Setting this situation up is also why this retreat mechanic is just flat out a bad dynamic in this game, and I hope the Paradox Dev's give this a serious look.

Like another player here said in a parallel thread to this (because I'm not the only one noticing this Retreat mechanic madness) -- give us options like in the Crusader Kings series, where you the player in the starting setup of the game, in Options, could choose if retreating armies only travel 1 province away, or have this "safe zone" retreat in play. I would also argue that the game's AI is failing to recognize Tribal dynamics also - Natives in a tribe, with a province full of tribe members -- well that's where you would retreat to, not a thousand miles away. Heck, even if you intended to move out a thousand miles in a Nomadic move as a tribe - you'd still go back to your family in the tribal HQs/provinces and everyone packs up quickly and moves (which nomads did quite well back then).

So I think there's a 2-part change needed - the core dynamics for Retreating, and the Natives systems that should result in retreats to tribal provinces unless they're sieged.

Probably the reason why they retreated to your vassal's province is because they was the only province that you owned (even if indirectly) which didn't have enemies adjacent to it. Had your army retreated to your only unoccupied province, they most likely would have been stack wiped by your enemy.

Yes, this system and flawed and it isn't properly explained in-game at all but that doesn't give you the authority to come to the forum at the same day that you bought the game and come to the forum with great ideas about how to fix this issue and how unrealistic and bad it is.

 

[Battlex]

The AI is incompetent with movement speed. You can use scorched earth on some mountains to annihilate the AI as they don’t understand their armies will take longer to arrive.

Just another reason people love mountains.

You mean more than a decade ago.

Cavalry - Europa Universalis 3 Wiki

eu3.paradoxwikis.com

LOL a bit more than a few patches since I guess. When did they get rid of terrain varying combat width?

 

[Manwe_Sulimo]

It can be sometimes annoying but in general the idea that the army retreats to a safe province makes sense and works, even though it can sometimes be annoying. - safe means far away from the enemy and ideally behind a fort. In your case you apparently had a few provinces very close and then that 1 province very far away with nothing in between - that let to an extreme situation, in most game situations that cannot happen, as you will not have a vassal / province so far away & there is nothing that blocks your army from moving their (you would have forts of your enemey, other nations or a sea in between, so your armies won't go there).

Currently it seems to be a very expceptional situation. It might become an issue, as more want to play in Northern America as this is 1 of the focus points of the next patch/DLC.

 

[Waffle Knight]

Just another reason people love mountains.

LOL a bit more than a few patches since I guess. When did they get rid of terrain varying combat width?

The denmark patch, version 1.19, released a smidge over 4 years ago, between rights of man and mandate of heaven.

 

[Battlex]

The denmark patch, version 1.19, released a smidge over 4 years ago, between rights of man and mandate of heaven.

Ah Denmark was my first free patch iirc, and which one removed protectorates and did we ever get dev reason on why?

 

[EarlKonrad]

Ah Denmark was my first free patch iirc, and which one removed protectorates and did we ever get dev reason on why?

I want to say around common sense and because the introduction of institutions.

I'm pretty sure that they did explain why in a DD.

 

[cetvrtak]

You'd need to play a lot more in order to fully understand the futility of what you're suggesting.

 

[Kimbole]

You'd need to play a lot more in order to fully understand the futility of what you're suggesting.

That doesn’t mean, in my opinion, that the original complaint isn’t pretty reasonable. But a lot of situations make more sense than they seem to on the surface when properly compared to the alternatives. The retreat mechanic is probably one of the less problematic of the compromises in EU IV.

To some extent I think the best way to enjoy the game (games generally?) is not to overthink the whys...

 

[TheMeInTeam]

You can choose to retreat earlier to avoid that issue entirely.

But longer retreats with a shattered army are generally better retreating just one or two provinces is quite likely to lead to another loss or stackwipe.

Of course sometimes the game bugs out and makes adjacent retreats happen anyway, acting as if forts exist in the area even if they don't (seems to be a broken interaction with movement lock).

Can also abuse the game's algorithm of avoiding shattering to distant provinces if anything is in an adjacent province to them (even 1 regiment, even if that 1 regiment can't move past a ZoC) to force adjacent-province retreats from AI too.

Though retreat rules aren't so bad. It's military access nonsense that makes things truly cancerous.