Retinues

[Tirion1987]

I noticed that retinues, basic ones included, are quite different from vanilla. I confess, I don't know much about tactics and other fine points of retinue calculation, and my observations so far are limited to "camels > EVERYTHING UNDER THE DAMN SUN", so to keep it short: do you guys have any recommendations for an optimum retinue as an Altaic, but non-Tengri, feudal ruler? The custom option I get with that is mixed HA and LC.

 

[zijistark]

I noticed that retinues, basic ones included, are quite different from vanilla. I confess, I don't know much about tactics and other fine points of retinue calculation, and my observations so far are limited to "camels > EVERYTHING UNDER THE DAMN SUN", so to keep it short: do you guys have any recommendations for an optimum retinue as an Altaic, but non-Tengri, feudal ruler? The custom option I get with that is mixed HA and LC.

I would spam the HA/LC retinue. Some Altaics have all-HA. Supported by levy and mercenary armies, they're lethal.

 

[Starki113r]

I've been wondering, are Cataphracts still awful like they are in vanilla or are they actually worth a damn now? I've been curious since comparing them to the two retinues Roman culture characters get.

 

[Vethantis]

I have no rigorously tested data to provide, but in several ERE playthroughs my Cataphract retinues consistently defeat standard levy armies up to 1.5 their size with relatively light losses. 1:2 odds are usually winnable but result in heavy casualties.

 

[2ndPorphyry]

I have no rigorously tested data to provide, but in several ERE playthroughs my Cataphract retinues consistently defeat standard levy armies up to 1.5 their size with relatively light losses. 1:2 odds are usually winnable but result in heavy casualties.

But their upkeep is so high. As the Empire I prefer to just keep the Varangians and another large (cavalry) merc company on retainer. Their initial hire cost is roughly equivalent to a year's wages, so as long as I'm not at peace for much more than a year it's worth it. I pay a fixed cost rather than the major fluctuations of retinues and they reinforce much faster.

Anyone else do this? Or have a strong argument for retinues being better? They just seem so much more expensive both in terms of up front and ongoing costs.

 

[PlayMp1]

But their upkeep is so high. As the Empire I prefer to just keep the Varangians and another large (cavalry) merc company on retainer. Their initial hire cost is roughly equivalent to a year's wages, so as long as I'm not at peace for much more than a year it's worth it. I pay a fixed cost rather than the major fluctuations of retinues and they reinforce much faster.

Anyone else do this? Or have a strong argument for retinues being better? They just seem so much more expensive both in terms of up front and ongoing costs.

Retinues have combat bonuses compared to regular troops and you can control their unit composition, meaning you can ensure that they're optimized.

 

[2ndPorphyry]

Combat bonuses had slipped my mind (it's late here) and those are not insubstantial, but merc companies can usually be mixed for decently optimal compositions because of how homogeneous they are. Though I must admit I'm more familiar with the nitty gritty math of vanilla tactics than the system HIP uses. I find it [HIP's] to be more intuitively manageable and so haven't looked into the details.

 

[Vethantis]

The upkeep is only painful when you're reinforcing, and as the ERE you should be rich enough to handle it. As long as you use your cataphracts intelligently and avoid disastrous defeats they're quite a potent force. The initial cost is negligible long-term considering you get to keep them for the entire game unless you're very very foolish

 

[Tirion1987]

A pity you don't have access to all the mercs: I remember one of my Rustamiyyun games where I was day 1 de jure warred by my stronger Idrisiyyun neighbour. Looking at the merc screen, I only had access to 2 companies, 2k soldiers to my ~1k and the enemy's 4k... but they were both full camel armies. The ensuing carnage was one of my happiest moments playing this mod

 

[Starki113r]

The upkeep is only painful when you're reinforcing, and as the ERE you should be rich enough to handle it. As long as you use your cataphracts intelligently and avoid disastrous defeats they're quite a potent force. The initial cost is negligible long-term considering you get to keep them for the entire game unless you're very very foolish

Honestly as the ERE I've found them to function much the same as in vanilla: they may be sub-optimal in small numbers, but any optimal playthrough from 867, 1066, or 1081 starts and you should be more than capable of fieldings 10k+ pure Cataphracts armies that'll tear through anything save for the Mongol hordes, and even that is simple as hell with levy reinforcements.

In my previous run that I put on the shelf in around 1300 (just got too damn boring with only like four major players left outside of myself), by the time the Mongols spawned I had a ~20k pure Cataphract army plus around 30k in personal levies alone and nearly 150k vassal levies, so the unit composition didn't really matter by that point.

I know going for optimal builds is a preferred past time of mico-managers, but really this game isn't on the level of EU4 or HOI4 where if you have the wrong compositions a comparatively smaller force can wipe the floor with you. Just pure numbers will beat anything smaller, half the time despite the Martial level you face. I had a guy with around 40 Martial from traits and natural stats alone supplemented by two ~25 Martial leaders go up against two or three to one odds, but bring around ten times that number and it don't mean shit.

Still, I wish they'd fix that stupid Skirmish bug with the Cataphracts and give Greek culture a better command style than that Embolon shit.

 

[zijistark]

Still, I wish they'd fix that stupid Skirmish bug with the Cataphracts and give Greek culture a better command style than that Embolon shit.

Which skirmish bug with cataphracts? [Vanilla or EMF?] And any suggestions on a better command tactic affinity for Greek culture?

@caocao268

 

[Starki113r]

Which skirmish bug with cataphracts? [Vanilla or EMF?] And any suggestions on a better command tactic affinity for Greek culture?

@caocao268

In vanilla, a bug in combat tactics has their troop mix have a tendency to trigger the tactics "Harass", which gives a hefty bonus to light cavalry stats (which aren't part of the retinue) and penalizes horse archers (which are in the retinue) or "Raid," which gives bonuses to light cavalry and light infantry (neither of which are part of the retinue), instead of the more useful "Swarm." It's all because Paradox made Horse Archers count as Light Cavalry in tactics selection, which has them occasionally choose extremely sub-par tactics. I'm not sure if this persists in EMF or not, because when I'm playing the Byzantines by the time I'm fielding Cataphract armies I have close to 10k of them simply obliterating levy armies because of the Crushing Charge tactic, which forces the Skirmish phase into Melee and absolutely slaughters the piss-poor units the AI fields.

As for Embolon Charge Formation, I'm not entirely sure what could be done to make it better. In vanilla, it's half as good as Couched Lance Charge, with a 240% bonus to Heavy Cavalry compared to 420%. It gives bonuses to Light Cavalry, when it'd probably be better giving bonuses to Horse Archers offensive stats. Maybe something like 360% stronger Heavy Cavalry, 150% stronger Horse Archers, -120% Heavy Infantry. Basically, though not as strong as the Couched Lance Charge or Retreat and Ambush tactics individually, it combines their two signature bonuses to make Cataphracts function a little better.

 

[BigPharma]

In vanilla, a bug in combat tactics has their troop mix have a tendency to trigger the tactics "Harass", which gives a hefty bonus to light cavalry stats (which aren't part of the retinue) and penalizes horse archers (which are in the retinue) or "Raid," which gives bonuses to light cavalry and light infantry (neither of which are part of the retinue), instead of the more useful "Swarm." It's all because Paradox made Horse Archers count as Light Cavalry in tactics selection, which has them occasionally choose extremely sub-par tactics. I'm not sure if this persists in EMF or not, because when I'm playing the Byzantines by the time I'm fielding Cataphract armies I have close to 10k of them simply obliterating levy armies because of the Crushing Charge tactic, which forces the Skirmish phase into Melee and absolutely slaughters the piss-poor units the AI fields.

As for Embolon Charge Formation, I'm not entirely sure what could be done to make it better. In vanilla, it's half as good as Couched Lance Charge, with a 240% bonus to Heavy Cavalry compared to 420%. It gives bonuses to Light Cavalry, when it'd probably be better giving bonuses to Horse Archers offensive stats. Maybe something like 360% stronger Heavy Cavalry, 150% stronger Horse Archers, -120% Heavy Infantry. Basically, though not as strong as the Couched Lance Charge or Retreat and Ambush tactics individually, it combines their two signature bonuses to make Cataphracts function a little better.

I haven't touched any of the bonuses since think0028 last worked on them years ago, but this is something I could look into.

 

[RhaegarTelcontarTargaryen]

Well, while we are here, any ideas for a good balance for Swedish pagan retinue?

 

[Remke]

I haven't touched any of the bonuses since think0028 last worked on them years ago, but this is something I could look into.

I'm pretty sure that Embolon Charge here basically just shares a name with its vanilla equivalent. As in it provides a reasonable bonus, in line with the other cultures' specific tactics.

 

[FinalLegendZero]

In vanilla, a bug in combat tactics has their troop mix have a tendency to trigger the tactics "Harass", which gives a hefty bonus to light cavalry stats (which aren't part of the retinue) and penalizes horse archers (which are in the retinue) or "Raid," which gives bonuses to light cavalry and light infantry (neither of which are part of the retinue), instead of the more useful "Swarm." It's all because Paradox made Horse Archers count as Light Cavalry in tactics selection, which has them occasionally choose extremely sub-par tactics. I'm not sure if this persists in EMF or not, because when I'm playing the Byzantines by the time I'm fielding Cataphract armies I have close to 10k of them simply obliterating levy armies because of the Crushing Charge tactic, which forces the Skirmish phase into Melee and absolutely slaughters the piss-poor units the AI fields.

As for Embolon Charge Formation, I'm not entirely sure what could be done to make it better. In vanilla, it's half as good as Couched Lance Charge, with a 240% bonus to Heavy Cavalry compared to 420%. It gives bonuses to Light Cavalry, when it'd probably be better giving bonuses to Horse Archers offensive stats. Maybe something like 360% stronger Heavy Cavalry, 150% stronger Horse Archers, -120% Heavy Infantry. Basically, though not as strong as the Couched Lance Charge or Retreat and Ambush tactics individually, it combines their two signature bonuses to make Cataphracts function a little better.

EMF Embolon Charge is far superior to the vanilla version. It gives a superior bonus to HC compared to generic Charge and a large bonus to HA (as well as modest boosts to LC and Camels). In addition, EMF has a far superior tactic selection method for the Melee phase that essentially guarantees that a pure Cataphract army will fire Embolon Charge 100% of the time, without risk of Raid firing instead due to HA counting as LC for tactic selection purposes (which isn't a bug - Paradox introduced that intentionally to nerf HAs to the point of uselessness unless over half your army is HA, in which case most LC tactics are disqualified. They did the same thing to Elephants, except they count as HC for tactic selection and there's no way for them to not risk triggering HC tactics. Not sure whether that's moddable or hard-coded). EMF's Skirmish tactic selection isn't as robust as the Melee tactic selection, so Harass can still be called in Skirmish due to LC counting as HA for tactic selection, but at least the EMF version doesn't impose penalties on HA - it just doesn't give them any bonuses.

 

[PlayMp1]

EMF Embolon Charge is far superior to the vanilla version. It gives a superior bonus to HC compared to generic Charge and a large bonus to HA (as well as modest boosts to LC and Camels). In addition, EMF has a far superior tactic selection method for the Melee phase that essentially guarantees that a pure Cataphract army will fire Embolon Charge 100% of the time, without risk of Raid firing instead due to HA counting as LC for tactic selection purposes (which isn't a bug - Paradox introduced that intentionally to nerf HAs to the point of uselessness unless over half your army is HA, in which case most LC tactics are disqualified. They did the same thing to Elephants, except they count as HC for tactic selection and there's no way for them to not risk triggering HC tactics. Not sure whether that's moddable or hard-coded). EMF's Skirmish tactic selection isn't as robust as the Melee tactic selection, so Harass can still be called in Skirmish due to LC counting as HA for tactic selection, but at least the EMF version doesn't impose penalties on HA - it just doesn't give them any bonuses.

Wait, so does that mean it's actually a good idea to spam cataphracts as a Greek in HIP (with EMF)? Because right now I have a very large Roman Empire with several tens of thousands of generic cav retinues (200 LC/50 HC) because I figured cataphracts were as terrible as they are in vanilla.

For that matter, what are optimal hordes other than camel cav for nomads?

 

[Starki113r]

Wait, so does that mean it's actually a good idea to spam cataphracts as a Greek in HIP (with EMF)? Because right now I have a very large Roman Empire with several tens of thousands of generic cav retinues (200 LC/50 HC) because I figured cataphracts were as terrible as they are in vanilla.

For that matter, what are optimal hordes other than camel cav for nomads?

If the tactics issue is solved for Cataphracts then they easily become one of the best retinues in the game again. They always absolutely obliterated AI armies, the only issue was the tactics selection would cause them to suffer atrocious casualties in the process. You'd usually lose close to half the retinue due to firing tactics that were completely useless to you and were easily countered by AI tactic selection. With Embolon improved the only AI that I can honestly see fighting evenly against a sizable pure Cataphract army would probably be the Mongols, and they can be dealt with because Crushing Charge will fire and immediately move the Skirmish phase into the general melee, which will wipe the floor with the hordes.

 

[PlayMp1]

If the tactics issue is solved for Cataphracts then they easily become one of the best retinues in the game again. They always absolutely obliterated AI armies, the only issue was the tactics selection would cause them to suffer atrocious casualties in the process. You'd usually lose close to half the retinue due to firing tactics that were completely useless to you and were easily countered by AI tactic selection. With Embolon improved the only AI that I can honestly see fighting evenly against a sizable pure Cataphract army would probably be the Mongols, and they can be dealt with because Crushing Charge will fire and immediately move the Skirmish phase into the general melee, which will wipe the floor with the hordes.

Awesome, I'd love to utilize them then. Besides, cataphracts have more heavy cav than cav retinues anyway.

What about nomads then? Other than pure camel cav, what do you suggest?

 

[Starki113r]

Awesome, I'd love to utilize them then. Besides, cataphracts have more heavy cav than cav retinues anyway.

What about nomads then? Other than pure camel cav, what do you suggest?

I don't play nomads myself, but from what I understand Camels are probably the best outside of the Altaic hordes and their Horse Archer retinues.