Retinue as an Egyptian Emporer

[Nerhesi]

So I've got my miaphysite emporer of Arabia and so far there haven't been too many doom-stack on doom-stack fights.

However, I'm about to engage byzantium which very fairly coherent at the moment and I've come to realise that my 10000+ strong mix of 2000+ HC and 8000+ LC isn't actually that optimized. Can anyone give me a good mix on what to do as Egyptian/Arabian in terms of retinue composition?

Also -what is this talk of cultural bonuses?

Thanks

PS Can I ever get access to other-cultural retinues or mercenaries? Are they tied to location conquered or just leader culture? Thanks

 

[unmerged(494787)]

They're tied to leader culture, and for mercenaries, to religion and location - you can't go hiring mercenaries from England if your capital is in Cairo. Cultural bonuses are your Cultural Building (for Egyptians/Arabs, Camel Riders) which provides specific bonuses to your castle's troops (in this case, buffs Light Cavalry Defense), and your Cultural Retinue, which is basically the same thing in Retinue form (for Egyptians, again, Camel Rider Light Cavalry with a buff to Defense). Some cultures, Egyptians/Arabs included, also get a Cultural Combat Tactic, in this case the Desert Ambush, which by default may only be used by generals of that culture, and in this case on Desert terrain.

As for the optimum mix of Retinues... I'm not overly fond of the Light Cavalry Retinues since they're not easily combined with the other retinues, given that most tactics buff Heavy Inf/Heavy Cav, All Infantry but no Cav, or Horse Archers/Light Cav, or, in the case of Desert Ambush, Light Inf/Archers/Light Cav. The problem with a Light Cav retinue/Skirmish retinue combination (that would be buffed nicely by Desert Ambush... on the right terrain) is that all the Skirmish tactics buff Archers OR Light Cav, and penalize the other. You could try pure Light Cav Cultural retinues, but in that case be sure to give them a general with the Organized (and, if possible, Cavalry leader) trait - his buffs to movement time and, if necessary, retreat speed should help you outmaneuver your enemy. Just remember you won't be winning against an equal-size stack of Cataphract, Knight, Horse Archer, or Heavy Infantry retinues head on. You'll probably beat levies of equal size, however, assuming they're not defending mountains or something.

 

[Mamluk]

I usually just go heavy on the cavalry but I don't have any actual stats on which ones are better. I usually go one infantry and one bow for every two cavalry.

 

[Nerhesi]

I think I may just have to try complete 400 A / 100 HI. Would this work via creating massive damage during skirmish then allowing for a decent melee due to the HI block? Thanks

 

[unmerged(494787)]

That won't work. Enemy generals will pick the charge_on_undefended_flank tactic and promptly shift into melee - where your 20% ratio of Heavy Infantry isn't going to save you.

 

[Nerhesi]

So basically - I need to have a balanced Retinue.

As a 20k retinue should be something like 8k archers, 5k LC, and the rest pikeman and infantry or so? Or perhaps my question should be, what is a nice balanced army?

 

[Jamey]

As the ERE, I tend towards 1:1 Cataphract:Shock retinue ratio. I have one army of 100% Cataphracts, which I use as a wrecking ball for enemy armies. It crushes everything in its path, but it's quite expensive.

 

[Nerhesi]

Unfortunately, Im Egyptian and I'd like to keep it that way. So Cataphracts are not an option

 

[Lord Sloth]

You'll want to have double the amount of your cultural routine than they have, as well as most of your levies as fodder. Be prepared to loos alot of soldiers to the Romans.

 

[Nerhesi]

I have a hard time believing that even double will make it... friggin Attack during skirmish on light cav is 1.1 and around 3.3 in melee phase. Isnt' defence so terribly underwhelming that it is pretty much ignorable?

Simple question: Will a stack of 50,000 Camel Cav defeat 35-40,000 Cataphracts?

 

[unmerged(494787)]

If you can get defensive bonuses and better generals? Most likely.

Two things though

1) 50k Light Cav is 100k Retinue Points. 40k Cataphracts are 192k retinue points. To be honest, with those numbers, you're the one outnumbered, not them.

2) I seriously doubt any AI is going to be able (or willing) to muster that many Cataphracts, even e_byzantium, except maybe, maybe, at very late game (1400+) At 1220 and with me conquering most of the map my retinue cap is only 212k.

 

[Casiru]

You definitely want your culture specific retinues. They all get a 0.6 modifier to the relevant stat (sometimes shared, but in this case a 0.6 LC def boost). The culture specific tactics tend to dominate... altho the terrain type limiter for arab desert ambush is a little bit harsh. The Byzantines for example get a 2.4 HC offense quite regularly in the melee phase with 18 days, easily enough to turn a battle around (they do get dominated by the mongols since they can end the melee phase whenever they feel like it.)

The 0.6 modifier makes them much stronger than the other retinues and if you get appropriate leaders they will win battles much more easily than you'd expect. After a quick look at the tactics having a quick or trickster leader and making sure your fighting in the desert, forest, hills or mountains will give a good chance of the 2.4 LC offensive that will turn your units from pussies into real men.

 

[unmerged(26764)]

So basically - I need to have a balanced Retinue.

As a 20k retinue should be something like 8k archers, 5k LC, and the rest pikeman and infantry or so? Or perhaps my question should be, what is a nice balanced army?

I would be curious to learn what everyone else does.

This is what I do. I tend to make 3/4 of my retinue my cultural retinue. The rest of it I round out with what I think I need. Since I have been playing cultures with heavy infantry and pikes I feel like I am missing power in pursue. So I fill out 1/4 of it with the cavalry retinues, to chase down the armies I crush. Then I stack them into groups of 20k -- 15K foot, 4k light cav, 1k heavy cav.

This isn't rounded. I don't buy archers. And I'm weak in skirmish -- I'm counting on picking defensive tactics during skirmish and then destroying in melee. If I were in England, I might do it differently. Maybe half longbows, 1/4 infantry, and 1/4 cav.

So I think it depends on what your cultural retinue is. If it's anything but archers, I would probably skip archers though.

 

[unmerged(494787)]

Yeah, you can generally skip Archers - Shieldwall will generally see you through skirmish if you use Heavy Infantry/Pikes, though with Mongols it can still be problematic. There is a use for a Skirmish retinue though - if you feel you have a big enough "Hammer" force, like Cataphracts, you can buy the Skirmish retinues to use for sieges, since they reinforce (unlike levies) yet don't cost a lot in terms of cash or retinue points. I do tend to do it like you - 75% Heavy Infantry/Pike Cultural retinue, 25% Cav retinue, if I'm one of those cultures.

If I'm Byzantine or one of the Knight cultures, I just go pure Cultural and fluff out the numbers with cheap mercs (hello, Varingian Guard!) and Levies if I need to. Altaic gets the same treatment with the Horse Archers. If I'm playing one of the Light Cav cultures (so far, only done Castillan, not Arab), I tried to go with small, one-flank stacks with Organized generals and use them to go around wiping out small enemy stacks. Worked ok-ish. Just can't bring myself to play any of the Light Infantry ones though.

 

[Nerhesi]

Perhaps I'm mis-understanding then. That pathetic attack during skirmish and melee phases, won't that literally tear you up when facing anywhere near equivalent (or even armies that have 2/3rds of your force or so armies? Or do the Light-cav only tactics make up significantly for that?

Maybe I dont' know how to crunch the numbers correctly. 20k Light Cav vs 12k HI. Is it me or is this a recipe for disaster for example?

 

[unmerged(494787)]

Well, skirmish attack in general isn't very good. The only troop types with "Good" skirmish attack are Archers and Horse Archers, at 5 and 4 respectively. Light Cav and Light Inf are next at 1, and then Heavy Cav, Heavy Inf, and Pike at 0.5, 0.25, and 0.1. Skirmish defenses tend to be better, and Light Cav are solidly in the middle of the pack there. Melee stats are identical to Light Inf, but that's to be expected since Light Cav are Light Inf on a horse. Pursuit values, however, are where Light Cav absolutely crush - both in Attack and Defense. Could they use a bit of a buff? I'll admit, they probably could.

With an Organized general though, I think they're usable. Squish the small-medium levy stacks as they try to assemble - you'll wipe them out rather than just cripple them (would have been better before the levy changes), if you get caught by a pure HI/HC/HA stack run - with the retreat time bonus and the good Pursuit Defense you shouldn't take casualties that are too heavy. They're cheap enough that spamming sieges is a viable option. A pure HI retinue is just a nasty customer, though, especially with good generals, so I wouldn't engage (with anything) voluntarily without stacking the deck in my favor first.

 

[macphineas]

Are archers effective even with the culture bonus? Has anyone played an England or Wales game and made a full archer retinue?

And what happens if you have a culture retinue, say Norman heavy cavalry, and your character switches culture? Do you lose the retinue or culture bonus?

 

[unmerged(494787)]

Archers suffer vulnerability to the charge_on_undefended_flank tactic, which immediately switches the battle to Melee - where archers are unbelievably terrible.

As far as I know, retinues and their bonuses stay upon succession or switching culture, but you'll obviously lose the ability to replace the off-culture ones should the current ones be wiped out completely.

 

[Nerhesi]

Ok - need quick math-head help.

Cultural Retinue (takes up 900 from retinue cap for 500 LC that have +60% defence) so = Skirmish 2/8 Melee 3/4.8 Pursue 10/12.8 X 500
OR
LC/HC basic Retinue (takes up 1200 cap and no cultural bonus which is a mix of 400LC/100HC) with the usual LC/HC stats.

Currently, the year is 1170 and I have a retinue of 15000 (3000HC/12000LC total max levies are around 75k), just trying to see if it would be worth it changing to.. uhm.. 20000 Cultural LC (Camel Cav).

I think this would be heavily decided by the available tactics, but I wish there was a listing of the tactics and their statistical +/- somewhere online. I've been unable to find anything like that.

 

[Kamahawk]

Simple question: Will a stack of 50,000 Camel Cav defeat 35-40,000 Cataphracts?

Nope, the Cataphracts will likely rip it to shreds.