Rethinking Warscore -- Sources and Uses

[luxfelix]

[Based on reading recent threads -- creating opportunities for character-dynamic/context warscore]


-- A Means to What End? --

A cassus belli sets the initial wargoal conditions for which achieving related sources will garner warscore quickly. Wargoals can be added mid-war to satisfy vassals/allies as the war progresses; though, collecting warscore only provides flexibility in negotiating the eventual peace, a potential Gordian knot depending on wargoals added, severity of the conflict, and outside influence.

After collecting warscore points, first a truce is offered. If accepted, then peace negotiations begin, during which a treaty is formed by spending warscore; however, if no peace is agreed to, hostilities could begin again.

This period between active conflict are opportunities for gaining/using hooks to separate-peace vassals and other combatants, undermining enemy warscore gains, &/or regrouping for another campaign season...


-- Territory Occupied --

Starting with the most direct way to attain warscore where the wargoal is to expand one's demesne to a specific place; additionally, singling out strongholds to occupy that belong to the relevant opposing faction's war support would cause those character's to put pressure on their liege to sue for peace.

In this way, war exhaustion is a personal modifier, as is the willingness to actively participate in their liege's war. If the vassal's lands are personally at risk, they will contribute more to the cause than if the loss would not affect their demesne directly (unless their character traits, liege opinion, etc. outweigh).

Vassals, just like other allied realms, will occupy the territories they capture (or are transferred) themselves. They will be reluctant to relinquish control -- even during a truce -- and their liege may lose the warscore of a vassal's occupation if the enemy manages to negotiate for that vassal to no longer actively participate in the conflict.


-- Characters Captured --

Related is the capturing of important characters for ransom, wherein their families will pressure the liege's court to negotiate for the safe return of their loved ones; as continued hostilities puts their safety in jeopardy, the liege risks alienating the characters of their realm continuing the war.

When the liege is captured, just as in CKII, victory is mostly certain unless a claimant faction chooses to carry on fighting the war under new management.


-- Paricipation Discouraged --

Not just accounting for the size of the armies, but the active participation of the vassals of each side; this way, if the enemy can convince the liege's vassals to stand down through the use of hooks, family ties, threatening presence, separate peace, or otherwise so that they no longer actively support their liege, the isolated enemy liege will become easier to bring to the negotiations.

Smaller realms with great unity (all vassals actively participating) have this warscore advantage against a larger realm with low unity (few vassals actively participating), even if the larger realm outnumbers the army of the smaller realm.

Extended raising of troops will discourage vassal participation over time, especially if continuing past the campaign season when levies are needed at home for the harvest (also a source for instability/factions).


-- Ecclesiastic Support --

For the defender, or an attacker with Papal support for the claim, the positive opinion of the opponent's clergy would provide another potential source for warscore as the case is made (or bought) and spread among the congregations for a white peace.

Pledging toward a crusade may help blunt the clergy's call for truce, though continuing hostilities with fellow Christian realms will begin to reduce warscore.

The threat of papal excommunication can also be a powerful incentive to come to a peace agreement.


[As always, thank you in advance for your contributions. ]

 

[DavidYung]

I appreciate you posting this. The first half is clear for me, until ''Characters Captured''. I can get the gist of what you're saying, but I am not a 100% on what you would actually want to see.

The subclauses. ''would/may'' language, passive verbs [is done/will be done], and little introduction to the terms makes the text hard to read. As a result, I cannot clearly see what direct game mechanics you are proposing. Can you lay out how the later mechanics would work in a written style akin to your first paragraph?

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For example: Ecclesiastic Support. The first sentence is quite long, and you introduce several things that imply gameplay mechanics. It would be clearer if all these sub-mechanics would be proposed in their own sentence or built on a little more.

''For the defender, or an attacker with Papal support for the claim […]'' Where does this Papal support come from? How should the Church play a role in wars that don't involve the Papal States directly? What about non-Catholics?

The second part of the sentence throws me off, this is how I read it:

''[For those with Papal support] the positive opinion of the[ir] opponent's clergy [provides a] potential source for warscore[.] [As the the enemy's clergy steer the public sentiment (is that what you mean?)] among the[ir] congregations for a white peace.''

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I think you mean: ''When the Pope picks the opposing side in your conflict, this can have major implications. Not only will clergy members turn against you, they will also try to steer your subjects against you. As a result, your armies will be demoralized [maybe some will desert - maybe that would be interesting mechanic in itself] and some subjects will be more likely to revolt. Your monthly piety will also be hit, and as a final measure, factions will gain in strength to see you deposed.''
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You then suggest that a ruler can try to go against that, but I think that's almost a separate issue. A lot of this part of the post has to do with opinions, and shaping the mind of the public and vassals. I think that's a very important idea that would elevate CK3 over CK2 in terms of realm management other than dread and actions. Words have value, and maybe there should be more on that.

I think propaganda could play an interesting role, but I am not sure how it would work. Should that be a discussion in itself?​

 

[luxfelix]

Can you lay out how the later mechanics would work in a written style akin to your first paragraph?

Certainly, here's take two:


-- Terms --

• Truce = A temporary pausing of the conflict (no battles nor army movement beyond allied occupations and friendly realms) during which war leaders use individually collected warscore from active participants to confirm wargoal gains in an official end to the conflict; if a peace is not agreed to before the truce period is over, then the war continues.
  
  
• Separate Peace = When one of the active participants (excluding war leaders) agrees to terms that include no longer supporting their war leader in the current war; in the separate peace of a vassal of the war leader, the vassal will become a passive participant, meaning that their liege will still have access to their feudal contact levies, and they will only defend their demesne if attacked, but any of their remaining warscore will be forfeited along with the relinquishing of any territories they occupied.
  
  
• Warscore = The points gained by active participants from accomplishing wargoals, lost by war weariness (impact modified by character traits), and used to negotiate for peace terms.
  
  
• War Leader = The character whom sets the main wargoal with the cassus belli (attacker) or the wargoal target (defender); when negotiating with the opposing war leader, truces and peace deals pool each sides warscore values and affect all parties involved.
  
  
• Active Participant = A character personally declaring war, either as the initial war leader, an ally (including mercenary captains), or as a vassal; only active participants can pile on additional wargoals beyond the initial cassus belli if they gain enough warscore. The balance of active participants on either side of the war will slightly affect warscore gain depending on how many more active participants one side has over another.
  
  
• Passive Participant = All other vassals of the war leaders &/or their allies' vassals that provide levies and taxes, as per their feudal contracts, but do not personally declare war nor aim to add wargoals; provided they have not previously signed any peace deals, a passive participant can become an active participant so long as they do not declare during a truce.

-- The 5 Ways to Fight a War --

• Based on the 5 lifestyles of Intrigue, Stewardship, Learning, Diplomacy, and Martial, characters can likewise gain warscore (&/or reduce the enemies' warscore) by other means, even if they are not so martially inclined...
  
  
• Intrigue: Each hook &/or family hostage a character has against an active participant contributes some warscore to an Intrigue character which they can use to dissuade them from active participation; supporting factions within the enemy's realm reduces their warscore.
  
  
• Steward: Supplying the coin to ransom hostages increases a Steward character's warscore (while helping the imprisoned character's warscore since their continued imprisonment reduces it); enticing mercenaries hired by the enemy to switch sides with a more lucrative proposal will slightly decrease that enemy's warscore (as a consequence of changing the balance of active participants).
  
  
• Learning: A character of Learning can generate warscore by persuading the Pope (or other high clergy) to voice their support for their side of the war, threaten excommunication of the enemy, &/or enlist oaths for crusade (for a truce or white peace); a higher opinion relations with the local clergy of the enemy territory will allow support of the peasantry to rise up in revolt (lowering enemy warscore).
  
  
• Diplomacy: For Diplomacy characters -- and especially if the dynast/head of a cadet branch -- family ties to individuals in the enemy realm generates warscore where they can apply social pressures to discourage active participation; getting separate peaces lowers the enemy's warscore (due to active participant ratio changes).
  
  
• Martial: As a Martial character, occupying territory, capturing hostages and winning battles increases warscore; with high character dread and a threatening approach of an active participant's demesne, cowardly and weaker enemy characters will yield if isolated from the rest of their allies, turning them into a passive participant and lowering the enemies' warscore (due to active participant ration change). Declaring an oath to join a crusade will raise warscore during a truce, though will eventually reverse into costing more warscore than the oath provided the longer they delay taking up the cross.
  

As a war leader, collecting warscore and piling on additional wargoals (by them or their active participants) comes with the risk of not satisfying those active participants, hurting an alliance &/or pushing vassals into factions with decreased opinion modifiers. A simpler one-wargoal-one-term treaty will more likely result in a lasting peace, whereas the fallout from a bungled negotiation will provide a pretext for future war...