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out

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Apr 6, 2004
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Okay there's been a lot of EUR bashing lately. I'd like to move onto something more constructive and stimulating. Here's some of my thoughts the warfare/military in EUR.

In my games, I usually have numerous small/mid-sized armies taking different routes, supported by mobile cav-only armies, attempting to converge simultaneously upon the enemy, idealy crushing the enemy outright with a 10:1 ratio. This isn't so much of a classical hammer-and-anvil type of strategy, but simply a strategy to maximize local numeric superiority and minimize attrition loss.

While this is strategically reasonable, I can't help but feel that this is incredibly gamey. This kind of napoleonic force concentration shouldn't have been possible in the antiquity. Historically, most campaigns were conducted by a single army that, for the most part, stayed together, only spliting off detachments on a relatively local level. Even the most organizationally advanced Roman legions rarely had more than a few legions engaged at a time.

Just to toss around a few ideas to fix this, I suggest:
-Reducing overall army size and army cap, reduce attrition loss
-Use the "brigade" system in other EU games, so as to make combined arms possible with a much smaller army
-Some kind of popularity and loyalty penalty for multiple generals engaging the same front.
-Have some kind of command penalty on excessively large number of armies
-Better yet, a pseudo-theatre command scheme:
Allows an army to be attached to another army. The "child" army would share the same general with the parent army. The size and number of armies that can be attached without penalty to be determined by the general's ability.

Aside from the abovementioned issue, there's also been discussion of introducing the AGEOD-esque "stance" system in this thread.

And lastly, there is the whole question of getting rid of EUR's standing armies and replacing it with the more historically accurate levy model.

Ideas?
 

BurningEGO

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The major problem to me in battles is that a general with a far better skill will win battles over and over again no matter what. I remember once when i was playing with the Seleucid Empire. Some barbarians spawned in Parthia - under a general with 10 or 12 martial skill. My best general was 4 iirc. I kept getting my ass kicked, and the barbarians managed to take most of my eastern provinces in a small matter of time with only a few men (even when i attacked with 3 times their numbers, with a lot of good troops).

My small manpower pool depleted in no time, and I only managed to get rid of this problem after a long while. I also remember similar problems when I attacked Armenia - their monarch had a big martial rating and I only managed to win after a long time and because of atrition (they basically had no more manpower to reinforce their army with).

While certainly historical to a certain degree, i cant help but feel extremely frustrated at having my hands tied - and consequently my entire game - to some random number generator, which you cant influence anyhow.

I dont really know what could, or should be made, but perhaps increase the loss ratio to both sides would suffice. Because attacking an army composed of 9000 men, with 30.000 or 40.000, and manage to kill only 2000 of those 9000 while loosing 20.000 or more men in the process, is plain absurd, specially if you cant inflluence the martial skill of characters in any way decisive.

P.S: Not really directly related to the thread and the question at hand, but creating more type of troops is definetely a must. And fixing the already existing ones, too - hell, i mean, since when were hypapists militia grade troops?
 

The-Doc

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I have some of the same complaints Ego, especially about the martial score. Though that wouldn't be so bad if skills in and above the 6-8 range were far more rare. I mean blokes like Hannibal, Phyrrus and Julius Ceasar are all eights or sevens yet routinely I see multiple generals with nines or tens, and when it is that high the battles become nigh impossible. Unless its some uneven matchup like Selucids vs Pergamon your nation's strategic future is up to whether you're lucky enough to get a few of these ridiculous prodigies. Neither charisma nor finnesse have such an impact on the game.

As for the inaccurate hypastists that's just another symptom of the Rome-centric nature of the game (though it is called EU-Rome..). Really psiloi filled more of the militia role, but instead they are rear line archers. But expecting different would have been assuming that the other armies aren't just the same units as Rome's but with different names slapped on (they even have the Roman pictures..)
 

Woody Man

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Re: Units, I think the EU3 system of unit upgrades would be fantastic to see rather than a static system. Also agree on the Generals, and also agree with Uly's points, a multiple stack army would be great to see, and more in line with what was actually going on at the time.
 

vanin

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Re: Units, I think the EU3 system of unit upgrades would be fantastic to see rather than a static system. Also agree on the Generals, and also agree with Uly's points, a multiple stack army would be great to see, and more in line with what was actually going on at the time.

I agree, then phalanxes and maniples could have different stats etc, now they are just botched together as "heavy infantry", with the differences only appearing late-game when you have chosen between Hellenistic and "Roman" (didn't the Romans adopt this from the Samnites or another Italic people btw?) warfare.
 

out

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Apr 6, 2004
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Personally, I don't see the need for more unit types. EUR isn't HOI, it's not Total War, and battle is just one component of the whole game. What is needed, as some of you pointed out, is a way to differentiate the troops between the countries.

The problem now is that the differentiation/specialization options are either too limited, too few or come too late in the game to be meaningful. A way to fix this is to have the tech tree splits come much earlier, or better yet introduce a whole bunch of new military laws that could allow the player to "customize" their army to an extent.
 

Melichai

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Has an analysis of the EUR battle system actually been carried out?

Id agree martial score seems far and away more important than any other factor whatsoever in a battle ( Sending a matial 6 leader with 20,000 troops up against a martial 9 leader with 10,000 troops is just asking for 20,000 casualties).

Is it the case ( as in EU3) that you are best fielding all cavalry armies where ever possible?
 

BurningEGO

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No, in Rome basically what kicks ass is heavy infantry.
 

Swuul

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No, in Rome basically what kicks ass is heavy infantry.

Early in the game heavy infantry kicks butt. Later on, when the techs improve, archers kick butt seriously, but they die in droves if not protected properly; even militia proteting archers do ok for a while, but you have to have the longer battle line and cavalry rolling the flanks, because else the HI will endure longer than the militia. So yes, I think heavy infantry is the unit one should build most.

Previously I built always armies in bunches of 10 regiments. 4 HI, 4 archers, 2 cavalry. But 10 regiments really is not good enough for much else except defense against barbarians, so now I attach these 10 regiment armies to governors (I call them provincial armies and like to name them after the area they are attached to, easy to know where combats are going looking at the reports).

Instead lately I have started build armies in bunches of 30 regiments: 14 HI, 14 archers, 2 cavalry; it is important to keep a steady flow of HI regiments marching to fill up the holes (consolidate regiments often and always before (big) battles; entering a combat with reduced strength regiments up front is asking for blood from your nose!). Thus I try to pack together 4-6 HI regiments right behind the province where the main army is; when the main-army starts to take attrition losses (or enter battle) I send the reinforcements marching in, and then immediatly merge them with the army and consolidate. If things go right, the archers and cavalry should seldom take any hits in combat (but there is of course attrition), and thus it is IMO ok to only focus on the HI replacement regiments marching in, and rebuild the other troops when the army withdraws to friendly territory to replenish.

When horses are available abudantly, a quick strike force of 15 regiments (10 cavalry, 5 mounted archers) can be devastating when going for the killing blows or interecepting reinforcements. It is easy to go greedy with these packs though, and disaster is looming over the horizon if sending them too deep.
 

Melichai

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War Elephants? Worthwhile or overratted? I am fighting the Ptolemies *a lot* in my first game as seleucids and I notice they tend to only build Heavy infantry and Elephants. Some of this is down to the fact I have captured Cyprus so they dont have Wood and I dont think they have any access to horses so they can only build Heavy Infantry ( militia too I guess) and Elephants, but the AI certainly seems to place some value on the War Elephants despite their cost.

Must actually try figuring out modifying save games to edit in some various army compositions and see how they do.

I am guessing there isnt a detailed, tested understanding of the mechanics underlying the battles though?