Resupply units needs to be nerfed.

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I have just been reading one of Michael Reynolds books, 'Men of Steel'. What struck me was the following. The Panzer Corps under discussion was decimated in Normandy, moved and reformed, taking about 2 months to reach full strength. This would seem to me to be reasonable, and gives a rate (assuming a maximum organisation of 100 for these units) of between 1 and two points of organisation gained *per day*.

And franky, that seems about right. I can see a freshly minted division gaining organisation at a higher rate than that (say 3 points per day), but one that has been knocked down below 50% strength *should* take *weeks* to get back up to full-strength.

And I agree that at least some organisation should be lost through movement. Armies have assembly areas for a reason

Cheers,

Dr. Charm

 

[unmerged(9143)]

Originally posted by OG_Gleep
An idea, but I think this would involve too much change for the current code.....

What about having to raise reinforcements like other units. It takes time to train replacements just like any other unit. In the unit option, there should be a option to "Raise Reinforcements" Or "Train Replacements" or something like that. It would add a que in a "Repair/Train" screen, sperate from the regular production screen. It would automatically train the exact number to get it to 100 strenght again. The amount of the trainees would determain the length of the time.

I, for one, do not need *more* micromanagement of my forces.

The extrapolation of this is that you should have separate recruitment pools for army, navy and air force branches, and within the army, you should have separate pools for infantry, armour, paratroopers, marines and mountain troops, with the option to, if the need presents itself, transform reinforcements from any of these pools to militia units.

It gets sort of ridiculous

Cheers,

Dr. Charm

 

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While adding an experience modifier to units would be the preferable fix in my book, making it take longer to regain organization would work just as well and probably be easier to implement.

Something does need to be done though. As it stands now there is no need to hold divisions in reserve behind your front to rotate into line in place of heavily damaged units. Hence you need far fewer units to conquer territory than you should, thus you use less resources to supply them, thus you have more to spend on research, etc, etc.

Kind of amazing how one little thing can unbalance so much.

 

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If someone is interested

Here is a simmilar discussion with ideas!

http://www.europa-universalis.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=60456

maybe should be merged

 

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If you make it harder to regain organization then you also have to nerf tactical bombing. Its just way too easy to take out whole divisions with one tactical bomber.

 

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Originally posted by Brock Landers
If you make it harder to regain organization then you also have to nerf tactical bombing. Its just way too easy to take out whole divisions with one tactical bomber.

That would be quite correct. Just shows that one little thing can really make a big difference.

 

[jdrou]

Originally posted by Jimkehn
Seems like I've also seen 'em take 3 hours to gain a point. I think it's variable.

It may depend on province infrastructure. Seems I've seen that mentioned somewhere.

 

[Tel]

I agree that organization should go up more slowly. As it is now, when you chase a defeated army to the next province they can sometimes be back up to 50 or so org points if it took a long time to retreat to the next province.
I would also like to to see you only be able to add as many reinforcemnts as you have org points. So if, for instance, the army was badly mauled and had 25 strength and 10 org, you could only reinforce it to 35 strength, giving you 0 org. This would eliminate "free" reinforcement of 0 org divisions.

 

[unmerged(12283)]

Originally posted by Dr.Charm
I have just been reading one of Michael Reynolds books, 'Men of Steel'. What struck me was the following. The Panzer Corps under discussion was decimated in Normandy, moved and reformed, taking about 2 months to reach full strength. This would seem to me to be reasonable, and gives a rate (assuming a maximum organisation of 100 for these units) of between 1 and two points of organisation gained *per day*.

And franky, that seems about right. I can see a freshly minted division gaining organisation at a higher rate than that (say 3 points per day), but one that has been knocked down below 50% strength *should* take *weeks* to get back up to full-strength.

And I agree that at least some organisation should be lost through movement. Armies have assembly areas for a reason

Cheers,

Dr. Charm

Yes! The refit of spent panzer units took weeks, if not months!

some suggestions:

1. To eliminate all the micromanagement though, maybe all infantry units not in combat, and in supply could slowly regain their combat ability (like they do with org, though both should be slower).

2. Naval, aircraft and armor units should have the repair/refit button to begin this process(due to the more expensive nature). Once moved, repairs refit stop until started again.

3. Units should not be eliminated due to low infrastructure provinces. Reduced in strength, or prevented from reinforcement - yes....but obliterated? Doesn't make sense. "Hey general, looks like those 800 tanks just disappeared...."

4. Manpower from conquered provinces should not be added to your manpower pool. Apart from the Germany's 'Ost' divisions, i can't recall who else did this....and the Ost units weren't particularly effective anyways. It would certainly stop these minor nations from taking over the world....

 

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Originally posted by Sharpei_Diem
4. Manpower from conquered provinces should not be added to your manpower pool. Apart from the Germany's 'Ost' divisions, i can't recall who else did this....and the Ost units weren't particularly effective anyways. It would certainly stop these minor nations from taking over the world.... [/B]

You forget that the nations conquered by the Germans had their armies recreated by the Allies and the Comitern (like the Poles), so the idea should be (i.e) when Germany anexes Poland it does not get any additions to the manpower, BUT once the Russians free the lands from the agressor they should get the additional Manpower. This would make more sense as the people of the occupied territories would want to help the allies/ Comitern (or even the Axis) and free their lands - also to a certain extent.

 

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There's only one historical power that conquered a lot of foreign territory in WW II, Germany.

Evidence suggests that they made use of the manpower in conquered provinces to boost the size of their military in three ways.

1) Direct recruitment or conscription of foreign nationals into the German Army. SS Charlemegne was entirely French, SS Nordic was Danish/Norwegian with a smattering of Finns and Swedes, and large numbers from the baltic republics served in ordinary army divisions.

2) Creation of puppet states with armies for internal security. Croatia being the first example that leaps to mind.

3) The use of labor from conquered territories, either as induced paid labor, or as outright slave labor, to work in war industries and to construct fortifications and military infrastructure.

Only the first of these explicitely added to the size of the German army, but the latter two factors had an effect as well. By freeing up German nationals to serve in the army, they let the Third Reich put a higher proportion of its able bodied adults in the field than they otherwise would have been able to do.

So I'd say the ability to use the manpower of conquered provinces is a reasonable game decision. I'd probably support a move to say the conqueror only got 1/2 the manpower or something on the theory that they wouldn't be as efficient as the original owning nation, but I do think you should get some benefit out of it.

 

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Originally posted by pcasey
There's only one historical power that conquered a lot of foreign territory in WW II, Germany.

Evidence suggests that they made use of the manpower in conquered provinces to boost the size of their military in three ways.

1) Direct recruitment or conscription of foreign nationals into the German Army. SS Charlemegne was entirely French, SS Nordic was Danish/Norwegian with a smattering of Finns and Swedes, and large numbers from the baltic republics served in ordinary army divisions.

2) Creation of puppet states with armies for internal security. Croatia being the first example that leaps to mind.

3) The use of labor from conquered territories, either as induced paid labor, or as outright slave labor, to work in war industries and to construct fortifications and military infrastructure.

Only the first of these explicitely added to the size of the German army, but the latter two factors had an effect as well. By freeing up German nationals to serve in the army, they let the Third Reich put a higher proportion of its able bodied adults in the field than they otherwise would have been able to do.

So I'd say the ability to use the manpower of conquered provinces is a reasonable game decision. I'd probably support a move to say the conqueror only got 1/2 the manpower or something on the theory that they wouldn't be as efficient as the original owning nation, but I do think you should get some benefit out of it.

Still, the number of units they deployed from foreign sources was pretty small compared to the #'s of german divisions. I'm not sure of the SS divisions, but the Ost were particularly weak in terms of armaments. You'd have to think about loyalty too: i'm sure these troops were thoroughly checked, and even then probably closed watched and kept close to the front(as opposed to sitting alone in rear areas)...Towards the end of the war, manpower shortage(men of suitable military age) was having a significant effect on germany; the way the system in Hoi is now, conquering alleviates that, and it shouldn't because the manpower principle is pretty good...

I think a significant reduction to 'captured' manpower (maybe a correlation between proximity of a country's political stance and yours? Ie, if you conquer denmark and the danes have been influenced to be 80% fascist, maybe you can get 80% of their manpower) might be a good solution.

 

[unmerged(9143)]

I think the main problem is that it is simply too easy to defeat other countries with a very few divisions. The game I'm playing now (see A Fire In France in the AAR section) is the first one where I've actually started to run low on manpower, and this is in spite of conquering Germany.

Cheers,

Dr. Charm

 

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yeah i guess if the AI gets better then resupply units wont be as cheesy as it is now. That doesn't mean it shouldn't be toned down a little bit though.

 

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Reinforcement Ideas

1. When you click on a unit to upgrade, allow us to click in a box to have it return to the same formation it started in when done. This involves a simple checkbox, and maybe a display of the formation name.

2. Make it easier to spot weakened units in a large army at a glance by highlighting the strength icon with yellow if down below 60% strength and red if below 30%.

3. I think rotating divisions in and out of the game is built into the game scale already. A unit alone gets smashed by any attack when at low organization. If there are two, the one with low organization has little effect on the battle and can be assumed to be in the second line.

4. Consider a slider on the production menu setting a threshold below which the game automatically and incrementally reinforces "unthreatened" units (i.e., not in combat, enemy not known to be moving into the province, etc. E.g., 10% increments and 80% threshold means a unit knocked down to 40% would pick up 10%, take some org hit and recover, then repeat until up to 80%. Youl could also set which units this applies to, any priorities, so precious manpower and supplies go where you want them to be.

SL