Results of testing Radar influence on Fighters

[Ruck]

I just tested the influence from Radar on Fighters and would like to discuss what the Forum thinks about it.

I used Germany and Poland for this test with AI off and the air zone is Western Poland, so that Poland got a difference from 6% more detection through the fact that they own more provinces in Western Poland air zone.

Both countries are using fully trained 1940 Fighters and exactly the same air doctrine (screen). And enough planes in stock for the next 100 Years.
The Test went from 1.October 1936 1 AM to 1. October 1937 1 AM and in the results you see the last 12 Month for the Air Zone. Both Air forces are always on Day only missions.

Things do bear in mind:
-Radar can give up to 50% Detection ( if the air zone is fully covered )
-Planes also give Detection from just beeing there, the upper limit is 3000 Planes per zone which gives 80% Detection.
-Just owning the land under the air zone also gives detection, but compared to Radar or just having planes there, it is quite low. In the case of Western Poland its a difference of round about 6% for Poland.Germany has a little bit of provinces under the air zone in Prussia.
-Im sorry for the German language on the screenshots, I forgot to change it .
-I also checked if Fighter Aces gets assigned if AI is off and they are, although there will be always a very small difference in the test results because of the fighter aces I think.

Results:

Equal air force of 3200 fighters (but 6% more detection for owned provinces for Poland):
Poland Lost: 5086
Germany Lost: 5186 (1,97% more losses)
Screen

Unequal air force of 7200 Fighters for Germany and 3200 fighters for Poland and no Radar:
Poland (shiny day 87% detection) Lost: 11 164 (140,86% more losses)
Germany (shiny day 82% detection) Lost: 4635
Screen

Unequal air force of 7200 Fighters for Germany and 3200 fighters for Poland + Radar:
Poland (shinyday 100% detection) Lost: 11 560 (147,70% more losses)
Germany (shiny day 81% detection) Lost: 4667
Screen

Equal air force of 3200 fighter but poland has an radar.
Poland Lost: 5057
Germany Lost: 5157 (1,98% more losses)
Screen

Equal air force of 1000 fighter but poland has an radar
Poland (shiny day 88% detection) Lost: 1491
Germany (shiny day 32% detection) Lost: 1626 (9,05% more losses)
Screen

This test with 1000 Fighters is weird for me, as here the difference of Detection is the highest. Poland has 88% Detection on a shiny day and Germany only 32% Detection. Still the results are only 9% more losses for Germany.

Unequal air force of 400 Fighters for Poland and 800 fighters for Germany and Poland has an radar
Poland (shiny day 70% detection) Lost: 522
Germany (shiny day 32% detection) Lost: 682 (30,65% more losses)
Screen

Also very weird for me, it seems that the less planes are there, the more effective radar gets. This is the highest difference in planes lost and the very best "effective result" for having an radar in the air zone.



When I look at the results now and compare it situations in Single Player and Multiplayer and in both gamemodes the most contested air zones have always 5000+ Planes from each side, I would say that Radar is not worth building and researching for the purpose of aid in air fight. Of course Radar have other very positive aspects like intel and convoy detection, and I believe aid in detection for bombers.

I would say a little buff to Radar wouldnt be too bad, would it ? Maybe if we cut down the detection value from "just having planes there" down to 50% ?


After all of this testing I think that Amelia Earhart really loves to fly around the world.

 

[Secret Master]

When I look at the results now and compare it situations in Single Player and Multiplayer and in both gamemodes the most contested air zones have always 5000+ Planes from each side, I would say that Radar is not worth building and researching for the purpose of aid in air fight.

RADAR for just fighting other fighters is usually a waste of resources when air regions have lots of planes.

However, you might want to rerun the test with bombers on one side. Run it with and without RADAR, and see if the RADAR helps the fighters bag bombers especially when the fighters and bombers are set to 24 hour operations and no retreat.

 

[bitmode]

This test with 1000 Fighters is weird for me, as here the difference of Detection is the highest. Poland has 88% Detection on a shiny day and Germany only 32% Detection. Still the results are only 9% more losses for Germany.

For every detected enemy plane, three own planes can attack (https://hoi4.paradoxwikis.com/Air_warfare#Detection). So in symmetrical fights, 33% detection represents a sweet spot and only if detection falls below that, you'll start seeing a strong change in casualty ratio. In asymmetric fights where e.g. a lot of fighters want to intercept numerically much fewer bombers as completely as possible, detection is more important because every bomber not detected means 3 less fighters disrupting them.

 

[Ruck]

RADAR for just fighting other fighters is usually a waste of resources when air regions have lots of planes.

However, you might want to rerun the test with bombers on one side. Run it with and without RADAR, and see if the RADAR helps the fighters bag bombers especially when the fighters and bombers are set to 24 hour operations and no retreat.

Ah, but it was actually the purpose of my testing to see the influence of radar on fighters vs fighters. Maybe could you change the title to: "Results of testing Radar influence on Fighters vs Fighters" ?

But I might test the Bomber thing anyways, but do you think that 24H missions are useful for such an test ? I mostly ignore Bombers in SP but I think that if I would use them in SP and maybe even in MP, I would give them some Heavy Fighters for escort and put them on Day only missions for the most damage. As I understand ( and I might be wrong here ), putting planes on day+night missions is like a lottery where you never know for which clock time the AI puts your planes on mission and there are only 2 possible selections per day out of 3, 2 on day and 1 on night and the 2 on day are always the most effective, although the one night mission might be better for CAS and strat Bombers if you cant give them fighters to help, as the enemy detection gets -25% plane detection in night and for strat bombers this could be higher with air doctrines.

Of course just from looking at the number I can already say that Radar might be useful for detecting bombers, cause Radar always gives + 50% Detection, even in night (as long as the whole air zone is covered in Radar, which is usually not a problem after Radar Technology 2 and Radar is also cheap to build anyways).

 

[Secret Master]

But I might test the Bomber thing anyways, but do you think that 24H missions are useful for such an test ?

Of course. Detection is worse at night, and you should be able to get at least 1 mission a day at night in most parts of the world most of the year.

(The arctic night is a real thing in HOI4, but that's another discussion for another day.)

 

[marcelo r. r.]

like guys above said to FTR vs FTR is a wast, in scenario to counter AI STR bombing(thats keep teleporting when chased), they very worth it, because economically is more cheaper build llvl 3+ radars than outproduce FTR enough to cover every air zone and maintain high detection stats only with FTR.

 

[Dan1109]

RADAR for just fighting other fighters is usually a waste of resources when air regions have lots of planes.

However, you might want to rerun the test with bombers on one side. Run it with and without RADAR, and see if the RADAR helps the fighters bag bombers especially when the fighters and bombers are set to 24 hour operations and no retreat.

Especially when your interception mission efficiency is lower than your air superiority mission efficiency. Radar should definitely help more fighters scramble and bomber losses should technically increase, as the amount of planes you would have in each air region for interception is quite low compared to your front lines when you pull all planes possible (and as you wisely said, radar in that situation is a waste).

 

[bitmode]

As I understand ( and I might be wrong here ), putting planes on day+night missions is like a lottery where you never know for which clock time the AI puts your planes on mission and there are only 2 possible selections per day out of 3, 2 on day and 1 on night and the 2 on day are always the most effective, although the one night mission might be better for CAS and strat Bombers

Air combat always happens at the hours 08:00, 16:00 and 24:00 (https://hoi4.paradoxwikis.com/Air_warfare#Air_combat). The local sun position in each strategic region at those times determines whether day or night missions will take place. A wing can take part in all three combats per day unless its day/night setting prevents it.

 

[Cavalry]

. A wing can take part in all three combats per day unless its day/night setting prevents it.

Is that a fighter wing that can fight 3 times a day? I read that for Cas only maximum 2 per day, day and night means 1 on day and 1 on night, day only means 2 per day, night mean 1 per day

 

[bitmode]

Is that a fighter wing that can fight 3 times a day? I read that for Cas only maximum 2 per day, day and night means 1 on day and 1 on night, day only means 2 per day, night mean 1 per day

No, that's for all types. Is your info maybe from the old air combat system, pre-1.4? If your test finds something that contradicts the wiki page, we can look into it.