Restrict Empire-tier for European nations

[klingonadmiral]

Seeing a bunch of Empires spring up in Europe gives a history-interested person like me a terrible heartache. In real life, Europe had a concept known as "translatio imperii", which basically stated that all imperial authority is derived from Rome. Thus, there were at any time only 2 (or 3, sometimes multiple nations squabbled over the title):

Karling Epoch:

HRE mk 1 + ERE

962 to 1453:

HRE mk 2 (Ottonian boogaloo) + ERE (with that short Latin Empire period in the 13th century, we don't talk about that)

1453 to 1789:

HRE mk 2 + Russia/Ottomans arguing over who is the true sucessor of the ERE

Then Napoleon sent this whole system to hell by crowning himself Emperor. Austria declared themselves an Empire (despite being part of the HRE at the same time). Brazil and Mexico also got in on the business. As Austria was an Empire, Germany made themselves an Empire to not seem inferior to Austria. As Empires where now springing up basically left an right, the Brits declared themselves Emperor of India (deriving the claim from the Mughals), despite having a kingdom as their primary titles. Soon thereafter the Empires bombed each other to pieces.

To represent the concept of "translatio imperii", the following restrictions should apply for European nations before the year 1750:

Catholics:

• capital located in Europe
  
• tag HRL does not exist AND amount of HRE provinces = 0
• number of catholic, protestant or reformed empires (limit: capital in europe) < 1
• relations with the Papal State at least 100 (the Pope and only the Pope can crown Emperors)
• at least 1000 development
• at least 50 prestige

Protestants/Reformists:

• capital located in Europe
• tag HRL does not exist AND amount of HRE provinces = 0
• number of catholic, protestant or reformed empires (limit: capital in europe) < 1
• at least 1250 development
• at least 75 prestige

Somewhat harder than for Catholic because the Pope can't just proclaim one Emperor, thus lacking a lot of legitimacy.

Orthodox:

• capital located in Europe
• tag BYZ does not exist
• number of orthodox empires (limit: capital in europe) < 1
• at least 1000 development
• at least 50 prestige

Should also add a permanent -50 relations modifier with Ottomans on Empire level, to simulate the arguing over who is the true sucessor of the ERE was.

Because seeing France, Spain, England or Poland running around with Imperial titles is just cancer. Also, ROTW can just form empires as freely as they want, to show that the terms there were somewhat more lax. Also in the lategame there should maybe be a free CB of Empires against other Empires, because in the 19th century they just loved to blow each other to bits.

 

[jesias]

Also in the lategame there should maybe be a free CB of Empires against other Empires, because in the 19th century they just loved to blow each other to bits.

It could be called Imperialism.

 

[grommile]

People whining about Christian empires that weren't Roman was tedious when it happened in the CK2 forums, and it's tedious here, too.

 

[Freudia]

Seeing a bunch of Empires spring up in Europe gives a history-interested person like me a terrible heartache.

Thankfully, EU4 doesn't even pretend to be a history simulator, so we're good with the amount of Empires that end up existing.

 

[Sparticulous]

one of the admins said. history takes a backseat to gameplay. I mean very few become empires by event or decision. (OE for example has its decision as it considered itself a sucessor and Russia gets a free empire too). One could make the criteria for empire harder for the rest of Christian europe so that empires will start popping up like popcorn around the 18th century based on normal europe development.

 

[User4035]

I disagreed with your post because its just too complicated.

Historically there was the title of Emperor
And then there was the way a country was governed that made it defacto an Empire.
CKII kinda bridges this gap between title and de-jure fairly well.

There are a number of factors but it kinda boils down to economics and governship.
A kingdom typically has 1 ethnic/culture group, and 1 set of laws.
A kingdom is also confined by distance of travel and sending messages. If it takes 6 months to get your royal decree over the rivers, mountains, and plains then you can't effectively rule that area and have to appoint someone to rule instead. Its kinda like vassalage but under vassalage the dukes and barons were still within a reasonable message distance, they just handled local affairs in their areas.

Realistically it boils down to size.

I think EU4 does it quite well. Based on development and how large your nation is.
I do think they should increase the tech level requirement. Everything just seems to be admin tech 10 in this game.
Admin tech 16 sounds about right for empire.

 

[Mattius]

I think there should be extra suggestions, but this seems a little too tough, especially as I've NEVER seen the HRE destroyed.

 

[klingonadmiral]

I think there should be extra suggestions, but this seems a little too tough, especially as I've NEVER seen the HRE destroyed.

The thing is, there were barely any new Empires springing up in Europe during the timeframe:

Ottomans around 1453, "Sultan of Rum" and whatnot
Russia (kind of, they started to style themselves as an Empire during the 14th century already as the power of the Mongols started to wane)
France 1804, partly in a bid to claim the Holy Roman throne
Austria 1804, in direct reaction to Napoleon (despite de jure being a subject of the HRE)

A few former colonies also proclaimed themselves Empire at the very tail-end of EU4s timeframe, ranging from laughable (Empire of Haiti, lolwut?) to kind of justifiable (blobxico and Brazil).
And even after the end of the game the two European empires that emerged, Germany 1871 and India 1876, were very much the result of political considerations, not old de jure ranks and procedures.

Forming an empire should be something damn hard to do, that only a player should be able to achieve.

 

[grommile]

Forming an empire should be something damn hard to do, that only a player should be able to achieve.

Forming an empire requires one thousand points of development.

The only AI-controlled Christian country that routinely hits that mark is the BBB, with intermittent showings from Russia and Spain.

 

[magnusvejby]

The only thing i really like is probably when you are catholic you need good relations with the pope, kinda makes sense.