just disband the armies it looks like they'll catch if you're so outnumbere you won't hurt them anyway
Restoring the Roman Empire: Worse case scenario
- Thread starter Kiithis
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In my Umayyad game I have reunited the whole of Iberia and North Africa - including Egypt - under the banner of the One True Caliphate, and now I want to liberate the holy cities of Islam which are held by filthy Catholic Mongols of the Ilkhanate. I can launch Jihads on their lands but... there is a problem: how could I kill their giant doomstack of 100K men they got when they spawned?
I have been lucky, but I used a tactical trick that you, looking at conquering Tunis, might find useful. I first Holywared Denmark to conquer the last duchy held by Europeans in the Holy Land, that is Oultrejourdain. The Ilkhanate, clearly, intervened in their favor. I was extremely lucky that for some reason, their doomstack was in southern Spain at that time, and decided to cross the whole of Africa (it is attrition-free, after all) to reach the holy land I had occupied. So I placed a small army of about 14K men in the province of Gabes. Like other provinces, it's a mandatory province to cross for armies willing to cross North Africa along the coast. I gave it the best generals.
Then, I raised all the remaining levies in my realm and placed them in ships. I assembled all the ships on the coast in front of Gabes: 150K men were waiting to land in Africa for the battle! As soon as the big doomstack came... BANG! A battle of 150K men of mine with the best generals against their 100K or little less was no match, only 20K of them survived. Of course I had to hunt them to death otherwise the doomstack would have regenerated. I quickly won the war (but lost men too, so the Pope called a crusade for Egypt, which was not supereasy to defend to due to the intervention of the Golden Horde). Now the Levant though is open to my expansion to reclaim to Islam its rightful land.
So what can you get from this story? You may want to provoke a similar situation. Given that you need Tunis, just occupy it and wait for the giant mongol doomstack in Gabes. You should have no trouble raising enough ships and troops given that you control at least ERE + HRE.
Good luck!
I have been lucky, but I used a tactical trick that you, looking at conquering Tunis, might find useful. I first Holywared Denmark to conquer the last duchy held by Europeans in the Holy Land, that is Oultrejourdain. The Ilkhanate, clearly, intervened in their favor. I was extremely lucky that for some reason, their doomstack was in southern Spain at that time, and decided to cross the whole of Africa (it is attrition-free, after all) to reach the holy land I had occupied. So I placed a small army of about 14K men in the province of Gabes. Like other provinces, it's a mandatory province to cross for armies willing to cross North Africa along the coast. I gave it the best generals.
Then, I raised all the remaining levies in my realm and placed them in ships. I assembled all the ships on the coast in front of Gabes: 150K men were waiting to land in Africa for the battle! As soon as the big doomstack came... BANG! A battle of 150K men of mine with the best generals against their 100K or little less was no match, only 20K of them survived. Of course I had to hunt them to death otherwise the doomstack would have regenerated. I quickly won the war (but lost men too, so the Pope called a crusade for Egypt, which was not supereasy to defend to due to the intervention of the Golden Horde). Now the Levant though is open to my expansion to reclaim to Islam its rightful land.
So what can you get from this story? You may want to provoke a similar situation. Given that you need Tunis, just occupy it and wait for the giant mongol doomstack in Gabes. You should have no trouble raising enough ships and troops given that you control at least ERE + HRE.
Good luck!
You could always go for the easy way but bear in mind that it's the equivalent of opening Pandoras box... Usually when I'm satisfied with the size of the Ilkhanate/Golden horde I fire the event that switches their religion (usually i go with the historical (I hope at least) conversions, Ilkhanate converts to Shia and golden horde to sunni) then promtly switch to them and delete their doomstack and presto! You got a interesting opponent that doesn't make you want to throw the keyboard into the wall.
Ya problem with that whole "use ships" thing is that their trying to conquer Mestopomia basically at the foot of the old Persian Empire. I got the old ERE territories so to use that i would have to give up Mesopotamia (one of my largest kingdoms) as well as for them to conquer Syria, to get to the Levant coastline.
Oh and my mongols were Pagan only until recently... converted to Shia Muslims. been persecuting those muslims so much only remnants are the Shia Calipate that has a few holdings in Arabia and the bottom of Axum. And I dont think i have any naval capacity along the Nubian coastline...
I decided to neuter them by disbanding the 185k deathstack...
IMHO if you have to do gamey stuff like keep 100,000+ men in boats to avoid attrition (frankly, ships should have TONS of attrition), then the Mongols are broken in CK2.
In my last game (which was another of these "Reunite the Roman Empire" games), I got so frustrated with watching my crack legions and bazillion levies get owned by the immortal doomstack that I resorted to just editing the save file to bring those armies into the realm of sanity. (and similarly, we were fighting in territory where the ship trick wouldn't have worked)
Watching the Mongols move through mountains with armies that insta-kill similarly sized armies with almost zero casualties, and which are 15-20 times bigger than the attrition level for the province.... That's just really annoying. By the way: has anyone figured out what the mechanism is that renders these armies immune to attrition? I tried to figure it out in the event files and in the save file, but couldn't see anything different about them. Is it something in the .exe? I think I'd be fine with them having super-armies that punch way above their weight (i.e. the super-lethal horse archer thing) as long as they had to stay at least relatively close to the attrition limit. An organized foe that's able to gather crack armies that outnumber the Mongols several times over should stand a chance. As it is now, you have to all sorts of silly, micromanagement, gamey nonsense to even start to whittle down the doomstack...
CK2 is a strategy game. I don't need a boss battle at the end where you have to figure out the gamey trick to beat the otherwise immortal enemy. "Oh, you hit them in the head enough and their armor cracks open there. Then you aim at the crack and..."
I trend to agree with ya there...
And no i havnt found anyway to give them attrition. when aksed i only got a mod link to where the doomstacks are smaller and your granted addiitonal supply limit to deal with mongol deathstacks. aka a work around.
I disagree. Think about chess: the Great Masters win because they find the best strategy, however everyone needs to know the basics of tactics and continuously improve over it (and often also helps you win). The fact that CK2 is a 'grand strategy' game means that we have more 'micro-tactics' than tactics, however at times it's considerably important.
So, to the OP: I'm sorry but you have to find some smart way to encircle and beat the doomstack. Try to wait it in an attrition low area and move many armies at the same time in a frontline, give the best generals to the one that will fight first.
Although it would probably be a good idea to make attrition bite on the Mongol doomstacks as soon as they settle and convert.
Maybe the Mongols could have attrition from the get go, but a very much reduced one? I think that would make sense, as they'd get enough time to overrun you if you're not strong enough to hold them at bay, but the outcome of the initial conflicts wouldn't be predetermined.
Sigh.
The Mongols are not that hard. You can beat them. On land without ships. With about the same number of troops.
1. Don't think you can just use levies with lots of light infantry in them. Light infantry are junk. If you are facing 100k Mongols with 100k light infantry, you are not "equal." Your army is made up of trash units. Most people are who complaining are wondering why 100k horse archers are crushing 120k light infantry when they had "more" troops. No you didn't. Your army was far worse.
2. Maneuver. Maneuver. Maneuver. Yes, they suffer no attrition. Yes, you do. So don't stack your units until the last minute. Bring lots of 20k stacks into the area and then mass them into the battle at the last minute. This takes attention to detail. You have to pay attention to what day each unit is going to arrive where. But it's hardly impossible.
Also, make distracting units. Little 10k armies can draw off parts of that super-stack. If you're reseiging all the Mongol conquests with 6 10k armies, they will often break off groups from their main force to stop you. Yes you will lose some of those small armies. But you will then beat the big stack and then chase it down to annihilate it.
3. Shieldwall. Shieldwall is the one defense to getting killed by horse archers in skirmish. So build an army that's going to use shieldwall. Lots of heavy infantry or pikes with good generals. Suddenly those horse archers aren't so devastating in skirmish. And you will beat them mercilessly in melee.
People who are losing this badly the Mongols are almost always tossing big stacks of bad units at Mongol elite stacks and wondering why they lost. Don't do that. Play smart and you will consistently beat them.
The Mongols are not that hard. You can beat them. On land without ships. With about the same number of troops.
1. Don't think you can just use levies with lots of light infantry in them. Light infantry are junk. If you are facing 100k Mongols with 100k light infantry, you are not "equal." Your army is made up of trash units. Most people are who complaining are wondering why 100k horse archers are crushing 120k light infantry when they had "more" troops. No you didn't. Your army was far worse.
2. Maneuver. Maneuver. Maneuver. Yes, they suffer no attrition. Yes, you do. So don't stack your units until the last minute. Bring lots of 20k stacks into the area and then mass them into the battle at the last minute. This takes attention to detail. You have to pay attention to what day each unit is going to arrive where. But it's hardly impossible.
Also, make distracting units. Little 10k armies can draw off parts of that super-stack. If you're reseiging all the Mongol conquests with 6 10k armies, they will often break off groups from their main force to stop you. Yes you will lose some of those small armies. But you will then beat the big stack and then chase it down to annihilate it.
3. Shieldwall. Shieldwall is the one defense to getting killed by horse archers in skirmish. So build an army that's going to use shieldwall. Lots of heavy infantry or pikes with good generals. Suddenly those horse archers aren't so devastating in skirmish. And you will beat them mercilessly in melee.
People who are losing this badly the Mongols are almost always tossing big stacks of bad units at Mongol elite stacks and wondering why they lost. Don't do that. Play smart and you will consistently beat them.
Valinn is right. As long as you've got sufficient size (around 60k in retinues plus 250k+ levies) you can beat them, though you'll need to be able to move them quick, so powers like Rus have a harder time than the ERE.
1. Starve them of land. Once the Ilkhanate arrives they will generally take Persia unless the Seljuks/their successors have expanded and have sufficient troops and smarts to beat them back. Once they shatter there will be a lot of minors - you need to gobble them up to deprive the Ilkhanate of more territory. Ideally, you should make sure you border them as much as possible to limit their expansion options and make them come through you before they have time to consolidate. If they've got Arabia, Khiva, Persia and Mespotamia you'll find them very difficult to take down.
2. Find the province with the highest supply level that is close to their borders and fill it with a HI/Pike retinue with high level generals (ideally with defensive based maneuvers) to maximise the chance of getting shield wall. The best spot is Baghdad which in my game had 49k supply capacity. If you can, raise additional retinues full of cavalry and position them around your plug province but making sure the plug province is the closest to their borders
3. Wait for them to DoW you. They will generally merge their doomstacks which will take a few months and give you time to prepare. The downside is the doomstack can be around 140k+
4. Raise levies and position them around your plug province (if you don't already have retinues there). You will probably need around 5-6 30k stacks. Also, if you can raise 3-4 10-15k stacks and keep them a couple of months march away from your borders.
5. They will begin to invade and siege provinces. You will lose cash and your warscore will go down. However, their stacks will eventually target the plug province. Where possible, maneuver your reserve stacks to take back any occupied provinces to keep the warscore down. If their main doomstack is going to corner them, disband them and then raise again.
6. Once they march on the plug province, slow the game right down and watch the time of their arrival. Once they arrive and engage your retinue, move all your satellite stacks onto your plug province. The plug should hold long enough for your other stacks to arrive. If you can dogpile 200k onto the stack you should win the battle, and if you've got light or heavy cavalry retinues in the mix you should take out plenty of troops during the retreat.
7. Pursue the main stack relentlessly once it retreats, and pull off the reserve stacks that are re-taking provinces to bulk up your main army if it gets whittled down due to attrition. You've got to wipe the whole thing out in one war. Ignore any offers of peace that come before you've wiped it out.
8. Once the main doomstack is wiped out, white peace and wait for your forces to rebuild. Then DoW them and target the best duchies in holy wars. Rinse and repeat til they're all gone.
I find the Mongols are a lot easier as their invasion path is in a corridor that has low value provinces, and once you've taken out the Ilkhanate you've generally got enough time to get rid of the conquest modifiers in Persia to bolster your troops and hit them early before they've got a chance to take a big foothold. In my last game I managed to wipe them both out in 40 years after stupidly giving the Ilkhanate time to consolidate in the east.
1. Starve them of land. Once the Ilkhanate arrives they will generally take Persia unless the Seljuks/their successors have expanded and have sufficient troops and smarts to beat them back. Once they shatter there will be a lot of minors - you need to gobble them up to deprive the Ilkhanate of more territory. Ideally, you should make sure you border them as much as possible to limit their expansion options and make them come through you before they have time to consolidate. If they've got Arabia, Khiva, Persia and Mespotamia you'll find them very difficult to take down.
2. Find the province with the highest supply level that is close to their borders and fill it with a HI/Pike retinue with high level generals (ideally with defensive based maneuvers) to maximise the chance of getting shield wall. The best spot is Baghdad which in my game had 49k supply capacity. If you can, raise additional retinues full of cavalry and position them around your plug province but making sure the plug province is the closest to their borders
3. Wait for them to DoW you. They will generally merge their doomstacks which will take a few months and give you time to prepare. The downside is the doomstack can be around 140k+
4. Raise levies and position them around your plug province (if you don't already have retinues there). You will probably need around 5-6 30k stacks. Also, if you can raise 3-4 10-15k stacks and keep them a couple of months march away from your borders.
5. They will begin to invade and siege provinces. You will lose cash and your warscore will go down. However, their stacks will eventually target the plug province. Where possible, maneuver your reserve stacks to take back any occupied provinces to keep the warscore down. If their main doomstack is going to corner them, disband them and then raise again.
6. Once they march on the plug province, slow the game right down and watch the time of their arrival. Once they arrive and engage your retinue, move all your satellite stacks onto your plug province. The plug should hold long enough for your other stacks to arrive. If you can dogpile 200k onto the stack you should win the battle, and if you've got light or heavy cavalry retinues in the mix you should take out plenty of troops during the retreat.
7. Pursue the main stack relentlessly once it retreats, and pull off the reserve stacks that are re-taking provinces to bulk up your main army if it gets whittled down due to attrition. You've got to wipe the whole thing out in one war. Ignore any offers of peace that come before you've wiped it out.
8. Once the main doomstack is wiped out, white peace and wait for your forces to rebuild. Then DoW them and target the best duchies in holy wars. Rinse and repeat til they're all gone.
I find the Mongols are a lot easier as their invasion path is in a corridor that has low value provinces, and once you've taken out the Ilkhanate you've generally got enough time to get rid of the conquest modifiers in Persia to bolster your troops and hit them early before they've got a chance to take a big foothold. In my last game I managed to wipe them both out in 40 years after stupidly giving the Ilkhanate time to consolidate in the east.