Restoring a ring world?

[LegacyCWAL]

There's another problem with this whole argument: keynes2.0's original calculations involve a ringworld that's only 10km wide. That is f***ing tiny. If you're able to build something like a ringworld, you aren't going to build something with a width less than one-third the distance of a marathon race. No, you're going to build something that at least requires a car to get from one edge to the other.

For reference, Niven's Ringworld - the creator of the concept - was closer to 1.6 million km across. So take all the numbers of how much material would be required and multiply them by at least a few tens of thousands.

 

[Malecord]

Mass speculations apart, does anybody have an idea of why livin metal is needed for ringworlds?

I don't know if "orbiting" is the correct term in this case. But can can it be that they are not perfect circles and that they need to constantly change their shape to not be pulled by the star gravity?

 

[keynes2.0]

There's another problem with this whole argument: keynes2.0's original calculations involve a ringworld that's only 10km wide. That is f***ing tiny.

Such a ringworld would have five times the surface area of the earth and all of that in constant sunshine. So imagine 5 a planet with 80 tiles in a straight line every one of which has an energy and food boost...

Mass speculations apart, does anybody have an idea of why livin metal is needed for ringworlds?

Presumably it's the least labor intensive manufacturing process.

 

[Elfwind]

You can´t.

Restoring ring worlds also wouldn´t be worth it, they are just simple 4x25 slots gaiaworlds. The real value is that you find ancient factorys on them, which are better then anything you can ever build, and without it they are not really that usefull. If you really intended to repair one ringworld it would cost you so much minerals that you could just built a "conquer the whole galaxy doom stack" instead.

Yes but we do the whole join me or die thing enough, it's fun being world-shapers and such instead.

 

[Mastah Jedi]

lol folks, no one in human history is ever going to build any "ring world". Human lifespan is too short, even considering medical advances of the next thousand years. At the same time, human being are motivated with individual quests rather then collective goals. Human lifespan, human nature and the cost of such a project, material and otherwise, will make this unattainable. Whats more, its really redundant. Considering the the required technology, it would be much cheaper and easy to colonize the stars and planets, then building anything of the kind. I suppose, some other alien species, of different lifespan, biology and social structure, may consider something like this, but just not humans. If we even become interstellar species in a first place. Given natural human tendency towards violence, individualism and continued evolution and creation of weapons of mass destruction. The kind of weapons what shouldn't even exist, and are just dangerous to even have around, there is a good, very good chance, what we will fight a war of extinction in some future time, what will end our civilization, and maybe even our entire species. For example, both Russian Federation and USA are not only not reducing their respective stockpiles of thermonuclear weapons, and other world killing munitions and technologies, but are in fact perfecting them, research and build new, more powerful and devastating weaponry. They also build new delivery systems, and reduce the response time ether superpower has to reconsider their deployment in any moment of crisis. Then there are limitations of our society what is now, like in the Roman times, almost entirely urban, on the global scale. We live in cities and suburbs, and entirely dependent on our infrastructure, as where the Romans. Almost all agriculture is once again in the hands of mega corporations, as it was in the hands of patricians. That means, in any global social crisis, where our infrastructure fails, we would not be able to sustain our self, and like the Romans, face a massive die out and depopulation. There are a lot of forces working, just to have mentioned a few, what make any genuine future of the human species as interstellar society, highly improbable.

 

[keynes2.0]

For example, both Russian Federation and USA are not only not reducing their respective stockpiles of thermonuclear weapons

I dont know why this off all the stuff in your post annoyed me the most but it did.

Spoiler

 

[Mastah Jedi]

The crude weapons are reduced, and replaced with more destructive munitions, of higher yield, and faster delivery. For example "RS-28 Sarmat" missile, new ICBM of the Russian Federation. Then there are modern developments, like a railgun, which would produce a kinetic impact with same or greater force then thermonuclear detonation, if large enough caliber, such as naval guns, currently in development. Anyways, your comparison is very crude. I'm not saying its impossible what human species reach interstellar existence, just not very likely what we will. If the human species can reduce global tensions, come out of the new Cold War 2.0, improve the global economic model, end wars of religions, or better yet finally end this archaic practice, we have a chance.

 

[GloatingSwine]

Mass speculations apart, does anybody have an idea of why livin metal is needed for ringworlds?

I don't know if "orbiting" is the correct term in this case. But can can it be that they are not perfect circles and that they need to constantly change their shape to not be pulled by the star gravity?

Living metal isn't really the stuff you need. The materials issue is tensile strength. In order to produce gravity the whole thing has to spin, and that spin would naturally try and pull it apart. The forces acting would be stronger than any known molecular bond, and so you'd need to look at applying the Strong Nuclear Force directly. Instead of being made out of extant elements a ringworld would need to be made out of material which consists of subatomic particles rearranged such that the SNF binds the whole structure not the atoms of the structure.

You're not talking about living metal, you're talking about taking quarks to bits to reengineer the way matter works at the subatomic level.


(There should totally be constructable space habitats though, if cruder than a Ringworld. We should totally be able to build O'Neill cylinders, maybe smaller rings up to the size of the Halo installations).

 

[Cannes]

1 kg from a 45 kg person is about 2%...



Surely you can give me a reason instead of appealing to an abstract and unspecific argument somewhere.

The mathematics and physics involved are complex, I leave it to the experts. You should check out every single youtube video made by PBS spacetime regardless. I'm doing you a favour by pointing you in their direction.

 

[Mastah Jedi]

There is a scientific view on this type of a stellar mega structure. Has a number of concepts, like "Alderson disk", "O'Neil cylinder" and perhaps most famous is the "Dyson sphere". None of those require any "living metal", fictional material. Here is a link to wikipedia for more basic information on the topic : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dyson_sphere

That said, if "living metal" can be described as nano particles embedded inside the metallic plating, which repair and reinforce (probably more accurately, somehow "recycle" fatigued elements) the metal, its not all that fictional a material. One way this could work, is a very thick layer of metal with superconductive core, where said nano particles are embedded, and interacting with the metallic substance, at least that is how I imagine it may work, I'm no scientist though. With time, research and better methods of production, such a material can become a reality, in some distant future.

 

[keynes2.0]

The mathematics and physics involved are complex, I leave it to the experts. You should check out every single youtube video made by PBS spacetime regardless. I'm doing you a favour by pointing you in their direction.

I dont want a complete explanation I want you to indicate the problem you confidently assert exist.

Living metal isn't really the stuff you need. The materials issue is tensile strength. In order to produce gravity the whole thing has to spin, and that spin would naturally try and pull it apart. The forces acting would be stronger than any known molecular bond,

It would? It seems to me that the specific acceleration would be 1 gravity so any structure (such as steel) that is capable of supporting itself under 1 gravity would suffice.

Why force besides the acceleration towards the sun would the structure be supporting?

 

[Mastah Jedi]

It would? It seems to me that the specific acceleration would be 1 gravity so any structure (such as steel) that is capable of supporting itself under 1 gravity would suffice.

Why force besides the acceleration towards the sun would the structure be supporting?

I think one solution to this problem, would not require physical material, but particle physics. If the entire length of this superstructure, the disk, can cycle superheated plasma, it could be enough for the structure to withstand the pressure and produce necessary shielding against harmful particles as a bonus, while retaining its spin.

 

[keynes2.0]

@Mastah Jedi
Again, what extraordinary pressure are you talking about?

 

[Mastah Jedi]

@Mastah Jedi
Again, what extraordinary pressure are you talking about?

Good question. Solar gravitational forces, may or may not be an issue to begin with. Where would have to be some kind of modelling be done, to see if its even an issue. I cant say with any certainty, aye or nay on this particular subject. We, or at very least, I, just don't know. That said, I would imagine plasma cycling, now what I think more of it, would be required for such a massive structure, in any event.

 

[keynes2.0]

Solar gravity at earth is 0.0006G. That is 1/175 as strong as the effect of the moon at earth surface. I dont believe buildings are built with super strong materials to be able to survive the tides .

We, or at very least, I, just don't know.

What kind of science is it that makes you say something is a problem when you have no reason to think it exists?

 

[Mastah Jedi]

I do not understand your question. I'm familiar with science, my father was a particle physics expert working for the Russian nuclear program. He and his friends, and my relatives, often talked science, and I picked up a lot of things, plus had my own curiosity as a result. Thus I know a few things about those subjects. I do not know, if a supermassive structure, such as this "ringworld" would experience extreme pressure from orbiting planetary bodies. What effect will have on the structure its own circular gravity well and other forces. Maybe none. I do not know, and I admit as such. Maybe there is a language barrier too, and your question makes more sense, in which case I'm sorry, English isn't my main language by far. Anyways, it was fun to chat with you folks, fun conversation. Time for me to go save the galaxy in Stellaris. Cheers!

 

[keynes2.0]

I do not know, if a supermassive structure, such as this "ringworld" would experience extreme pressure from orbiting planetary bodies. What effect will have on the structure its own circular gravity well and other forces. Maybe none. I do not know, and I admit as such.

I am commenting on the fact that you seem to be assuming there is a force in the first place when you speculate that some exotic plasma structure is needed.

 

[Mastah Jedi]

I am commenting on the fact that you seem to be assuming there is a force in the first place when you speculate that some exotic plasma structure is needed.

Oh, that. The main reason its needed, I would think, as a particle shield, as well as a way to generate fusion energy for something this huge. Not as a way to block gravity forces, it can't do that. But I was assuming, some exotic particles can, or may, deteriorate the superstructure over time, unless its shielded, which would be one way to do that. If there is no fatigue, then the gravitational forces, if they are an issue to begin with, would not be able to do more damage over time, as the structure gets more "loose". Anyways, hope I explained my reasoning.

 

[keynes2.0]

generate fusion energy

There would already be a tremendous source of fusion energy, a star. Solar power would be very efficient given the lack of atmospheric interference or nighttime.

But I was assuming, some exotic particles can, or may, deteriorate the superstructure over time

I think you are talking about a long term of time while I was only considering the immediate prospects of a freshly built and currently occupied ring.

 

[Aldregan]

Why force besides the acceleration towards the sun would the structure be supporting?

Part of what is causing the issue is your calculations are not taking into account the same gravity or rather simulated gravity everyone else is.

We "could" build a Niven ring with near term technology. Its just a matter of building a ring around the sun. It may take a millennium or two to do but its feasible. The problem comes into play when we spin the thing up for centrifugal force to simulate 1G. The forces at play in a spinning ring would tear the ring apart given any technology we would have today or even a century from now. The attractive force required to keep it from breaking apart (if spinning) is roughly the strong nuclear force (this was calculated by Niven's fans). So it would have to essentially be one giant molecule for the substructure in order for it to work.

Now, if we could come up with artificial gravity so that we wouldn't have to spin the ring, then it is doable with known physics. The problem there is one tiny power outage and you lose your atmosphere and biosphere to space rather quickly so it would have to have extremely redundant systems at play. On the plus side, an electric charge running through the whole ring would create a very nice magnetosphere(Taurus?).