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sjg132

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I read on the wiki that instead of being able to stockpile resources, resources would flow directly from origin to production. Instead you will be able to stockpile equipment.

I am excited for this game, but frankly, this is a bad idea. I don't mean to be rude. Yes, there are some gamey things that can and should be done to simplify gameplay. But this was a bad idea. Countries have stockpiled resources for centuries. It has just been a thing that has happened. The idea that this cannot be done essentially states that current capital/resources cannot be saved or invested for the future, instead of being consumed now. If this were the case, kiss goodbye to all modern economic growth. I am an economics major so you can trust this information.

Here is proof that 1930s technology was capable of stockpiling resources. And that almost any country could do it, too.

Cases in point: Oil. You can stockpile oil, refined, unrefined, you name it. How? A huge concrete underground tank. Or, for greater accessibility, stacks of barrels. Both have been done.
upload_2015-4-7_7-51-29.png

Steel. You can stockpile steel. Anything from a scrap metal junkyard to a sheltered facility where steel billets are stored.
upload_2015-4-7_7-48-14.png

Aluminum. Identical principle to storing steel. Easier, even - it's much lighter.
Chromium. Chromium is more rare and therefore harder to stockpile in its pure metallic form but is used far more sparingly than the above resources. Here is a stockpile of a type of chromite ore, which is refined to obtain most of our chromium.
upload_2015-4-7_7-55-11.png

Rubber. Rubber can be stockpiled in many forms, either in its less refined form (as shown) or in the form of piles of the finished product. Either way, it can be stockpiled.
upload_2015-4-7_7-56-59.png

Tungsten. Same idea as Steel and Aluminum. Much heavier and not used as much as the others, but used more than Chromium. Still, can be stockpiled.

Where is Coal?? Coal is a ridiculously important resource to drive industry!! What exactly powers the factories? Nevermind Chromium, we need coal to make stuff!

There are so many cool things you can do with the resource system that this dampers. You could require the player to construct facilities to store the resources in. Then they could be captured or bombed. These things happened in WWII, and were a major pain in Hitler's @$$. Or you could use the 99999 system HOI3 had. That wouldn't be perfect but it worked alright and was more realistic than no stockpiles!!

You could institute a system on the side where it is more efficient to store the pre-manufacture resources closer to the point of origin. After all, it is.

Oh, by the way, I like the idea of the Military/Naval/Civilian factory split. Definitely hits closer to reality than the "black box" that HOI3's IC system was. It is useful and easy to think of an economy as a black box that takes inputs and makes outputs and which can be easily adjusted. This is not true. Different factories are different, and different inputs are needed for different things. Wonderful idea splitting the factories there. These 3 types are perfect: they get realism and playability perfectly balanced in a justifiable manner.

Yo I love the dev team and think this will be a great game. But some things need to be done before alpha to make sure that certain parts aren't whack.

Sam G
 
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Denkt

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This is one of the best changes in HOI4, you will now allways need to have a inflow of the needed resources which makes strategic warfare more potent.
 
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sjg132

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I am telling you, it will break the game. Imagine having a small rubber resource bombed 6000 miles away in the jungle and being unable to produce trucks the next day! Resource stockpiles were vital to industry! Every country had different deposits of resources here and there, it's just a fact.
 
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SchwarzKatze

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This is one of the best changes in HOI4, you will now allways need to have a inflow of the needed resources which makes strategic warfare more potent.
I do hope PDS find a balance between "IJN total shut down the day US started the sanction" and "Japanese player has no need to invade SEA because oil never runs out".
 
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Poh

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I am telling you, it will break the game. Imagine having a small rubber resource bombed 6000 miles away in the jungle and being unable to produce trucks the next day! Resource stockpiles were vital to industry! Every country had different deposits of resources here and there, it's just a fact.

That wont happen.

Stockpiles wont exist as in HoI3 which to be fair is a good thing. The stockpiles in HoI3 were so big a buffer that you didnt have a problem running a deficite for the whole war.
Stockpiles do exist in HoI4 in a manner of speaking. As far as we have been told ressources work in a way that they will gradually work towards the current input. Example:

Day 1: 100 rubber (100)
Day 2: 80 rubber (98)
Day 3: 90 rubber. (97)
Day 4: 100 rubber (98)

the amount of rubber you recieve each day with the amount of rubber at your disposal each day in the parentes. That works for all intends and purposes as a small stockpile.

Also we do not know how ressource scarity impact the production directly. If a truck is produced using 3 iron and 2 rubber. what precisely happens to the production efficiency if you only have 3 iron compared to 3 iron 1 rubber or 2 iron 1 rubber etc. The only thing we know is that the efficiency is reduced when you lack ressources.
 
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Centurion1973

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IMO, 1-3 month resource stockpile would be reasonable.

I expect, that we will still stockpile supplies and fuel.

In case of rubber, I expect, that we will be able to make it in Synthetic rubber plants (just like happened IRL), because there was only 1 area in which natural rubber was produced and that was taken over by Japan in 42, making it unavailable to everyone else.
 

potski

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Resource cost determines how many resources are needed for the line to operate at full speed

So resource scarity reduces weekly output. If there is none of a certain strategic resource flowing to your factories will it prevent all production of certain types, or will there still be some produced at lower efficiency and/or with lower stats?

The devs referred specifically to still being able to produce stuff like Militia even in a situation of major scarcity. Which implies at least some equipment types (especially old types) which don't need the strategic resources.

Factories no longer need Metal/Energy/Rare Materials to run.

We have simplified the inputs to "Raw materials" which factories use to run. Raw materials act as a limit on your total Industrial Capacity.

So coal etc. is there within the raw materials. Just more abstracted. Countries with significant raw materials of their own, access from allies or trading partners, or the capability to stockpile these resources, don't need to worry about them. So the devs choose not to model them in detail:

Requiring the player to gather several different types of resources in order to manage factories did not necessarily add anything interesting to the mix. Being short on any of them had the same effect no matter what you were lacking (your Industrial Capacity would shrink) and it didn't entirely make sense that you couldn't build things like Militia if you didn't have access to Rare Materials.

We have simplified the inputs to "Raw materials" which factories use to run. Raw materials act as a limit on your total Industrial Capacity.

So part of the problem is people confusing HOI3 rare materials with HOI4 raw materials.

The "rares" as a specialist resource for certain equipment types is modelled in more detail, with Tungsten, Chrome etc.

Equipment also has a Strategic Resource cost, without which it takes much longer to produce. Strategic Resources are not accumulated in pools. Instead, they represent the potential flow of resources into your factories. For example if you have 10 Iron you can be building stuff that costs up to 10 Iron at any one time.

I don't see that as zero resource stockpile. It could equally mean there is an infinite stockpile. Flow of resources seems to imply the limiting factor is logistics, infrastructure, number of factories etc.

It's irrelevant if you are UK and have 1000 tons of rubber stockpiled, if they are neatly stacked up in a warehouse in Singapore when the JAP invasion force comes calling.

Without incredible detail you can't do justice to trying to model stockpiles. The alternative - that a country in HOI3 could be reduced to a small enclave around it's capital, and still have access to all of it's oil and supplies stockpiles. Or that logistics bombing of the capital alone could have such a major effect.

We surely can assume that the loss of the main source of rubber production won't stop factories producing trucks. There were (more expensive) alternatives to using rubber. In effect, you are saying if you have 10 factories producing trucks, one might be producing the tyres using rubber. Without a flow of rubber one of the ten factories has to start producing a substitute. That reduces the number of engines/chassis etc. that get produced, and overall the output might drop by say 10% per week.
 
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jju_57

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I am telling you, it will break the game. Imagine having a small rubber resource bombed 6000 miles away in the jungle and being unable to produce trucks the next day! Resource stockpiles were vital to industry! Every country had different deposits of resources here and there, it's just a fact.

First off you picked a bad resource for your example. By 1944 even the US was producing 90% of their rubber needs through synthetic plants.

As for stockpiling showing a few pictures means nothing. If you did actual research you will find that for the vast majority of resources the stockpiles were 90 days or less. In other words just enough to maintain the pipelines. We already had a big discussion on oil stockpiles before and during WW2. Bassically there weren't any.

Also, it has been said that your factories will still produce things when you don't have any resources but at a greatly reduced efficiency rate.

HOI3 stockpiling hurt that game. HOI4 concept is great because it actually forces you to go to war for resources.
 
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Bluestreak2k5

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Resource flows are not immediate, they will be reduced over time, however we don't know how long that is. Just as Countries had stockpiles, so did companies themselves, so any shortage would not be immediately felt the next day, or possibly even next week. You can still produce all equipment even with a shortage, however the maximum weekly output will drop.
 

uleslaw

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I do not really care about the lack of stockpiles of resources in HOI4, but what afraids me is the possibility (nothing really revealed yet, AFAIK) that also fuel&supplies stockplies are gone. I need the relevant dev diarry, and I need it badly...
 
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adijarca

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Imho the game should have a time slider for resources which allows you to use part of your income to stockpile resources for x months. After the stockpiling is complete you get to use them to supplement income for y amount of time to use them before they start to decay. And also have tanks, planes, factories, etc cost maintenance. For example tanks cost 0,1 metal per day or something.
 
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Centurion1973

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I do not really care about the lack of stockpiles of resources in HOI4, but what afraids me is the possibility (nothing really revealed yet, AFAIK) that also fuel&supplies stockplies are gone. I need the relevant dev diarry, and I need it badly...

Based on use of oil in equipment production, I suspect, that fuel supply want be in game and logistics will provide only "supplies".
 

Joppos

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Just because a part of a system seems more relatable to reality, doesn't mean the system as a whole will better represent reality at all. I do think this is true for stockpiling, and the new design seems more likely to give opportunities and consequenses relatable to ww2. Worth mentioning is that the stockpiling system in hoi3 had no real relation to reality and almost exclusively just made possible extremely ridiculous gameplay. Sure it looked relatable to real world stockpiling, but wasn't in the slightest.

Look at Germany's copper situation (p.127). In 1938 consumption was over 400.000 tonnes/yr, stockpile 200.000 tonnes; By 1942, 240.000 and 270.000 tonnes respectively; 1944, 219.000 and 450.000. A bit simplified the stockpile would have lasted say anywhere from half a year to two years if input ceased at any point. And when the input would have ceased the efficiency would have directly started to decline as rationing would have come into effect. So is there any reason why stockpiling would need to be a directly controlled mechanic represented by resource units, when all it effectively is is a mechanic to delay production efficiency loss and could be immediately represented as such? As a directly controlled mechanic it seems only likely to be

1) Harder for developers and modders to balance
2) Difficult for the player to translate actions into desired effect (e.g. "how many units should i store to last a certain time", and "how many facilities do i need for that many units")
3) Difficulty in translation leading to unrealistic results
3) More prone to unrealistic abuse, harder to prevent such

That said, if a lack of resources just translates to slower but non-insignificant constant production then there could maybe be an issue. Likewise if a lack of resources immediately eliminate production, as for example the UK not being affected enough from being isolated, or affected too much too quickly.

A decrease of efficiency as a function of time, approaching zero efficiency, based on number and level of resources lacking seems well suited for the job though. Such a system would likely work well in representing the reality of ww2 production and be easier to manage and interpret than raw numbers.

The eventual time of decline/increase would also be good for getting modified with policies ("x, y, z years supply of materials"), and giving nations such as japan with more unique stockpiling policies representability via perhaps national focus or otherwise.
 
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Gamer_1745

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I think they are going from a system that was too easy to stock pile some stuff to one without stock piles. I do think the ability to have some stuck piles would be good. I am holding judgement until I can see it in the game. Also I am interested in how synthetic oil (which I believe will be in the game) & synthetic rubber (which I think wont be in the game) will be handled.
 

Axe99

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I think they are going from a system that was too easy to stock pile some stuff to one without stock piles. I do think the ability to have some stuck piles would be good. I am holding judgement until I can see it in the game. Also I am interested in how synthetic oil (which I believe will be in the game) & synthetic rubber (which I think wont be in the game) will be handled.

This is where I'm at as well. What I'm hpoing for is that the 'efficiency decline' from a lack of input sensibly reflects a month or two's worth of stockpiles, so you don't lose any efficiency for a month say, and then after that it declines. Losing efficiency right away would be a nightmare for any nation relying on convoys that came in 'lumps' rather than as a steady stream (definitely the UK, I'm not sure if Japan had much of a convoy system or not), and I'm hoping that the convoy system will reflect the lumpiness of convoys, which means I'm hoping the efficiency decline will take this into account as well (so you get a drop in efficiency if, say, two convoys don't arrive because they get mauled by U-boats, but you don't get a drop just because there's a three-week gap between convoys arriving because that's how the scheduling worked out).

If balanced right, it's an elegant system, as the alternatives are things like the HoI3 "stockpile ridiculous amounts of stuff, but a hard drop in production when you run out" didn't really reflect the ability of countries to substitute when facing specific shortages (and over-represented the capacity of countries to stockpile!), while a more complex system of depots and infrastructure risks turning HoI4 into "WW2 resource stockpile manager 2015" (which, as a fan of transport and management sims I wouldn't mind personally, but I'd still want a proper HoI4 to go with it, and I think the devs have their hands full just doing that :)).

The limitations, of course, are that you've got the implied level of stockpiling restricted to however much is coded into the balancing system. Hopefully this will be moddable for each nation (or could even be potentially influenced by player decision - for example, spend X amount of consumer resources to increase the depth of your supply chain by X weeks), but even if it isn't, it's a good step forward from HoI3's set up.
 
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potski

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Having convoys that come in "lumps" doesn't matter if they are HOI3 like, ie. daily. The Production system seems to be geared around weekly outputs. So even if a whole convoy is sunk carrying a strategic resource, you still should get 6 days. Though I suspect they won't even model them moving around by convoy. Otherwise, you must have local stockpiles at the place of production, at ports, on the convoys.
 
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monksimus

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Having convoys that come in "lumps" doesn't matter if they are HOI3 like, ie. daily. The Production system seems to be geared around weekly outputs. So even if a whole convoy is sunk carrying a strategic resource, you still should get 6 days. Though I suspect they won't even model them moving around by convoy. Otherwise, you must have local stockpiles at the place of production, at ports, on the convoys.

I'm not sure this is the case, I think production still works in terms of days, however the system displays whole units where possible. I can't remember where but I thought I saw a video where there was more than 1 infantry equipment produced in a day. My interpretation is that they wanted to avoid numbers like .24 artillery produced per week, as most players would find that annoying to deal with.

On the second point, I agree that they probably won't move around by convoy, but I'm hoping there has been enough commentary on that point that they will try to make it happen. Seems to fit with the degree of on-map naval activity they are going for, and I would hope that meant they thought about what happens if one convoy is sunk, which was often built into the estimates of resources needed. Another of those times I think we need to see the game and how the systems interact to really pass too much judgement.
 

MatteFnatte

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I am telling you, it will break the game. Imagine having a small rubber resource bombed 6000 miles away in the jungle and being unable to produce trucks the next day! Resource stockpiles were vital to industry! Every country had different deposits of resources here and there, it's just a fact.

Well if it would turn out like that then it will be very noticeable for the developers and also in the Beta-testing, they've said numerous times that it won't be a buggy
release. Of course you could say it is a feature rather than a bug (classic) but who would buy the game? The difficulty level required to play any but the huge resource-
rich nations would be too high. I'm sure this is taken into account, you do have a point though that (especially after ww2 when lessons learned) nations do build up
huge fuel reserves, the stories about old Soviet huge underground storage during the cold war for example. For the sake of balance the gigantic resource stockpiles of HOI3 was probably not the best idea, several mods addressed this problem in different ways.