I agree, BUNA rubber was produced by Nazi Germany in bulk quantity for the Wehrmacht and Luftwaffe.
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Resource Development
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I agree, BUNA rubber was produced by Nazi Germany in bulk quantity for the Wehrmacht and Luftwaffe.
Not having rubber doesn't prevent you building trucks. The number of trucks produced per week is reduced, in other words some of the factories you assign to building trucks are producing the synthetic rubber that is needed for the tyres. There is no need to model synthetic rubber plants as a building you construct in your states.
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Well, think of it as an investment and returns.
In 1936 you have 2 options-
Build a lot of factories, convert the naval into civilian and focus on army and air and production techs, so much so that by 1939 or so you are reaping the rewards of your investments made.
Or
Go on the Historical path, spend that money in a "balanced fleet" and then suffer due to lack of resources in the 1939-1941 period.
Historically, the Germans spent a lot of money on a useless surface fleet (for the second time - Wilhelmine Germany did the same mistake) and this resulted in the extremely low production figures in the 1939-1941 era which was a key era. It was this time period when the AXIS had the best chance of victory.
The main reason the 1943 "Speer miracle" took place was that in 1938-1941 they made a lot of investments in Synthetic Oil, Synthetic Rubber, new plants etc which started giving returns from 1942 onwards, by pushing it back 2 years, you can get these benefits in late 1939 or early 1940.
Are you allowed to convert naval dockyards into civilian? I doubt that it's possible - it seems an important new part of the game that IC is split between naval and ground/air. If you don't use your dockyards to build a navy, then they don't get used.
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I think i remembering reading / hearing somewhere you can only change civilian factories into either military or naval factories not the reverse.
Then just build submarines. Problem solved, no useless surface fleet and dockyards are actually being used.
I think we had a thread, called the DOCKYARD GAMBIT thread or something, where it was clarified by one of the mods that factories can be converted from Naval to Military/Civilian or at-least that was my understanding.
If not military then civilian conversion is definitely possible in RL also.
You mean this thread? There are no dev statements in that thread, and I didn't see any mod statements to that effect. Perhaps you could find it for us?
Holy shit, that looks beautifulOr convoys. Looks like you better have lots of steel and oil though.
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Well, not in that thread, but in the below link- one of the mods has clearly written,
YES YOU CAN CONVERT FROM ONE FORM OF INDUSTRY TO ANOTHER- a basic law of thermodynamics corollary.
Without that happening, the game is being too rigid.
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...opment-diary-5-production-lines.774778/page-2
Say, i start playing as the USSR, Historically Stalin wanted a fleet and built one of the largest sub fleet and also a number of Destroyers, Cruisers and BC BB etc (or had old Tsarist Russia BB BC and HC upgraded) all of which was a total waste. Why would i (as a player) want to repeat it?
I will do no naval research and convert all naval factories to consumer goods and consumer goods to military so that i can churn out 10000 T34s by the time the Germans invade.
Similarly, the Germans can avoid a surface fleet construction and spend the resources saved on more artillery, AA, AT, planes and tanks.
You are referring to this by DR, who is one of the devs (they don't show as dev posts when converted from old forum software):
There is no such thing as civilian dockyards, unless you count convoy ships.
The reason you give, both SOV and GER not bothering to create navies and using all of the IC to build tanks and planes, is surely the reason why there is this split?
It's not realistic to imagine that all of the IC in a place like Glasgow could be used flexibly to build a CV or 500 tanks, as earlier versions allowed. And verging on gamey that countries with significant coastal cities and overseas trade, could in effect scrap their navy. It's not just the idea that the naval commanders would be upset by this (and that makes it impossible in Japan for instance) but capital ships are a very visible statement of power projection. Even if we know with hindsight that battleships were becoming obsolete because of air power, this was not public perception, or even the perception of the naval planners in 1936.
If dockyards can be converted to military factories then it should be slow to do it, and at say 50% efficiency, so you get 1 military factory out of 2 naval dockyards.
But there should be a penalty for not building a navy, or a bonus for doing so. There could be an NU hit, especially for cancelling any ships which are already being produced in 1936. But launching a capital ship could get some PP. In the sense that it is launched with much fanfare and public interest.
And although there is no training of ships as such, and therefore no obvious way to gain naval experience points other than combat, then perhaps you could get some points just from producing new ships. This makes sense to me if the final stages of producing a new ship include sea trials / crew training. You will learn something when you get your new CV that can help develop a new variant of CV. Otherwise, it seems to me that it will be very hard to produce variants of ships, and every country will have the same spec just with different flavour names. You could see this in one of the videos where Italy went to war with Ethiopia, then Yugoslavia, then invaded France, without ever gaining any naval experience points.
In an historical game, Japan is going to gain a tiny amount of points from fighting the Chinese navy, but UK gets none before 1939 and USA none before 1942. That doesn't seem realistic.
Without the Intel system then I'm not clear how it would be discovered. But if SOV fails to invest in an adequate navy then Germany should do amphibious landings against the Baltic States.
I took that to mean that civilian factories can convert to military factories and vice-versa.
There is no such thing as civilian dockyards, unless you count convoy ships.
The reason you give, both SOV and GER not bothering to create navies and using all of the IC to build tanks and planes, is surely the reason why there is this split?
It's not realistic to imagine that all of the IC in a place like Glasgow could be used flexibly to build a CV or 500 tanks, as earlier versions allowed. And verging on gamey that countries with significant coastal cities and overseas trade, could in effect scrap their navy. It's not just the idea that the naval commanders would be upset by this (and that makes it impossible in Japan for instance) but capital ships are a very visible statement of power projection. Even if we know with hindsight that battleships were becoming obsolete because of air power, this was not public perception, or even the perception of the naval planners in 1936.
If dockyards can be converted to military factories then it should be slow to do it, and at say 50% efficiency, so you get 1 military factory out of 2 naval dockyards.
But there should be a penalty for not building a navy, or a bonus for doing so. There could be an NU hit, especially for cancelling any ships which are already being produced in 1936. But launching a capital ship could get some PP. In the sense that it is launched with much fanfare and public interest.
And although there is no training of ships as such, and therefore no obvious way to gain naval experience points other than combat, then perhaps you could get some points just from producing new ships. This makes sense to me if the final stages of producing a new ship include sea trials / crew training. You will learn something when you get your new CV that can help develop a new variant of CV. Otherwise, it seems to me that it will be very hard to produce variants of ships, and every country will have the same spec just with different flavour names. You could see this in one of the videos where Italy went to war with Ethiopia, then Yugoslavia, then invaded France, without ever gaining any naval experience points.
In an historical game, Japan is going to gain a tiny amount of points from fighting the Chinese navy, but UK gets none before 1939 and USA none before 1942. That doesn't seem realistic.
Without the Intel system then I'm not clear how it would be discovered. But if SOV fails to invest in an adequate navy then Germany should do amphibious landings against the Baltic States.
@potski
DR is a Dev or at-least a SuperMOD and hence he qualifies as an authority on the subject matter.
Now, to dockyards - most of the equipment i.e. lathes, milling machines, drills, welding machines, cranes etc and their operators can be re-used in military factories.
Slipways and Gangways cannot and that is showcased by the slow amount of "iterative gains".
Civilian dockyards is the merchant marine and its equivalent.
Now, i agree for a country like Italy, UK or Japan to scrap a navy is a dubious ploy and should be penalised, but the penalty they will get is a much smaller navy at the start of the war which is going to result in problems sooner than later.
For countries like USSR and GERMANY navy was a luxury except the SUBS, so why should you be 'railroaded' into repeating all those mistakes.
For that matter France in 1936 was attempting to build a huge navy too and can and should discard it to concentrate on the German land offensive.
DR is a Dev or at-least a SuperMOD and hence he qualifies as an authority on the subject matter.
Now, to dockyards - most of the equipment i.e. lathes, milling machines, drills, welding machines, cranes etc and their operators can be re-used in military factories.
Slipways and Gangways cannot and that is showcased by the slow amount of "iterative gains".
Civilian dockyards is the merchant marine and its equivalent.
Now, i agree for a country like Italy, UK or Japan to scrap a navy is a dubious ploy and should be penalised, but the penalty they will get is a much smaller navy at the start of the war which is going to result in problems sooner than later.
For countries like USSR and GERMANY navy was a luxury except the SUBS, so why should you be 'railroaded' into repeating all those mistakes.
For that matter France in 1936 was attempting to build a huge navy too and can and should discard it to concentrate on the German land offensive.
There is no civilian dockyards. Convoy ships to carry trades and military supplies to overseas units are produced by the government even while at peace. You can see on the screenshot above that the Trade Convoys are produced alongside of the naval vessels.
IC splits three ways. Between factories and dockyards, and this is dependent on how they are set on the map. Then factories split between military and civilian, depending largely on Laws, but also Ministers, National Focuses and techs can probably affect.
I think the idea that France (a global power with colonies in the Caribbean, Africa and Indochina) could just discard it's navy in 1936 is ridiculously naive. Especially as that assumes that Germany would do the same, and that they would be fighting Germany. Same with Soviet Union. They might argue (rightly) that without a Baltic Fleet there was nothing to prevent Germany just sailing troop ships into Leningrad harbour, as was done in Oslo. The fact that the German and Soviet fleets never engaged didn't mean they weren't a deterrent.
So, given the situation that actually existed in 1936, where most people regarded a country as a major power as much by the size of their navy, as their army, I think it's gamey to disband your navy and use all of the IC to build tanks and artillery.
I trust the devs to do everything possible to avoid that happening.
IC splits three ways. Between factories and dockyards, and this is dependent on how they are set on the map. Then factories split between military and civilian, depending largely on Laws, but also Ministers, National Focuses and techs can probably affect.
I think the idea that France (a global power with colonies in the Caribbean, Africa and Indochina) could just discard it's navy in 1936 is ridiculously naive. Especially as that assumes that Germany would do the same, and that they would be fighting Germany. Same with Soviet Union. They might argue (rightly) that without a Baltic Fleet there was nothing to prevent Germany just sailing troop ships into Leningrad harbour, as was done in Oslo. The fact that the German and Soviet fleets never engaged didn't mean they weren't a deterrent.
So, given the situation that actually existed in 1936, where most people regarded a country as a major power as much by the size of their navy, as their army, I think it's gamey to disband your navy and use all of the IC to build tanks and artillery.
I trust the devs to do everything possible to avoid that happening.
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I've done just that in HOI3. It was garrisoned but by a weak understrength unit, iirc.
BTW though, if you're going to say "major powers should devote at least a little bit of IC into navy, otherwise it's gamey" - then there really should be some sort of in-game mechanic that makes it an actual strategy or trade-off. Building a navy because historically you would have... is a hard thing to justify. For that matter, it's not really fair for the player to have to figure out what is "reasonable" for a nation of their size.
Also it's worth noting that for nations like France, they are at risk of not being able to supply and get resources from their colonies. Of course, the French strategy can be "hide under the UK"...
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Well Germany could build a navy and got for US and UK instead of Soviet. Given that US don't start with much military power at all so if you can land an army + keep their navy away you will probably be able to annex US.
If you don't build any navy at all you just ask for defeat as your enemy will have total control over the sea and can launch invasions and transport equipment unchallanged.
All ships are useful and all ships have atleast one counter so if you go submarines only you will lose to destoyers.
Another thing is that I don't think you can recruit foregine manpower in a large quantity like you can in previous HOI so that should be noted.
A point about HOI4 is that you may not necessarily get massive advantage by know what happened in our history because it is a game not a 100% correct historical simulator.
If you don't build any navy at all you just ask for defeat as your enemy will have total control over the sea and can launch invasions and transport equipment unchallanged.
All ships are useful and all ships have atleast one counter so if you go submarines only you will lose to destoyers.
Another thing is that I don't think you can recruit foregine manpower in a large quantity like you can in previous HOI so that should be noted.
A point about HOI4 is that you may not necessarily get massive advantage by know what happened in our history because it is a game not a 100% correct historical simulator.
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@potski
I think you have probably misunderstood mine or the DEVS comments.
There are 3 types of factories- Civilian for Civilian Goods, Military for Land and Air and Dockyards for ships; each of these 3 can transform from one form to another.
So DOCKYARD will not be civilian dockyard, it will stop producing ships and start producing pots & pans or clothes or whatever.
Again, France has the UK's navy to protect it, it didn't really need a "defensive navy" as the UK which was a thousand year old enemy had turned ally a few years before the Great War.
As for USSR, Leningrad was extremely well garrisoned, it had a huge mine barrier, Kronstadt was still a decent fortress etc etc, the British tried landing in "navy less Turkish lands @ Gallipoli" and fell into a quagmire, the Naval Landings if attempted should end in similar disaster, the third reich did not really have the 'landing craft' techs or the wherewithal to research and produce them in sufficient number to arrange for landing.
I think you have probably misunderstood mine or the DEVS comments.
There are 3 types of factories- Civilian for Civilian Goods, Military for Land and Air and Dockyards for ships; each of these 3 can transform from one form to another.
So DOCKYARD will not be civilian dockyard, it will stop producing ships and start producing pots & pans or clothes or whatever.
Again, France has the UK's navy to protect it, it didn't really need a "defensive navy" as the UK which was a thousand year old enemy had turned ally a few years before the Great War.
As for USSR, Leningrad was extremely well garrisoned, it had a huge mine barrier, Kronstadt was still a decent fortress etc etc, the British tried landing in "navy less Turkish lands @ Gallipoli" and fell into a quagmire, the Naval Landings if attempted should end in similar disaster, the third reich did not really have the 'landing craft' techs or the wherewithal to research and produce them in sufficient number to arrange for landing.
Let me Highjack this Thread instead of opening a new one:
I strongly hope Paradox implents some sort of resource development at least for a DLC.
I remember playing AoD (HoI II Mod) and released India in 1936 and played it. I sided with Germany which got defeated 1948 and then i resisted occupation of Allys and SU. In the north i build a 10 Point fortress, air ports, infrastructure and had 6 Infantry division with huge railway guns bombarding enemy infrastructure. It was a stalemate and i ended the game undefeated but unwinnable in 1959. What bothered me the most was the fact i can build all those things but not a single coal plant or another metal mine.
In my opinion in a DLC it should implent an (optional ) way to increase resource production with energy being easy to increase and rares difficult. It should be tied to the real world so Saudi Arabia could increase oil production, China and India invest in plants / metal mines etc. Maybe you have province XX and you have 10 metal production with additional number behind it (potential production 12). So in some provinces mostly in underdeveloped but resource rich countries you can increase production with some investments.
Its more a tool if you play other countries like China, India, released colonies etc. In HoI 2 Africa was mostly useless with some metal here and some rares there. The one french province near Germany produced more metal then whole of Africa.
In the end it was only possible to write an event file which gave me offshore energy production in exchange for 50k supplies.
EDIT: With those focus tree each country has (e.g. Befriend Austria etc.) maybe its possbile to mod it for states like China can choose focus Build Plants, Build Mines or Saudia Arabia has focus Build more Refinery
I strongly hope Paradox implents some sort of resource development at least for a DLC.
I remember playing AoD (HoI II Mod) and released India in 1936 and played it. I sided with Germany which got defeated 1948 and then i resisted occupation of Allys and SU. In the north i build a 10 Point fortress, air ports, infrastructure and had 6 Infantry division with huge railway guns bombarding enemy infrastructure. It was a stalemate and i ended the game undefeated but unwinnable in 1959. What bothered me the most was the fact i can build all those things but not a single coal plant or another metal mine.
In my opinion in a DLC it should implent an (optional ) way to increase resource production with energy being easy to increase and rares difficult. It should be tied to the real world so Saudi Arabia could increase oil production, China and India invest in plants / metal mines etc. Maybe you have province XX and you have 10 metal production with additional number behind it (potential production 12). So in some provinces mostly in underdeveloped but resource rich countries you can increase production with some investments.
Its more a tool if you play other countries like China, India, released colonies etc. In HoI 2 Africa was mostly useless with some metal here and some rares there. The one french province near Germany produced more metal then whole of Africa.
In the end it was only possible to write an event file which gave me offshore energy production in exchange for 50k supplies.
EDIT: With those focus tree each country has (e.g. Befriend Austria etc.) maybe its possbile to mod it for states like China can choose focus Build Plants, Build Mines or Saudia Arabia has focus Build more Refinery
Well you can use civilian industry to build something which will increase the extraction rate of a state that already has resources in it. Don't know if we do this for all resource extraction from the state or just a specific one. Can just chose states with appropriate resources in any case.
You are correct though I do want to add the devs have stated in the past, though this may have changed, that synthetic oil produces both oil and rubber, I think they said it was 2 rubber and 1 oil. I assume that is only the first tier of synthetic oil and that since their are multiple tiers of it that later tiers will make more rubber and oil.