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Bsharp

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Research and design are completely different concepts. Through research, we learn to make armor that offers better protection for a given amount of weight. Design is the art of deciding how much of that armor a particular vehicle should have, given its mission and the tradeoffs that we’re willing to accept (fuel use, speed, off-road mobility, etc).

While there were minor differences in the basic technology employed by the major combatants of WWII, it was design that had the most impact on actual operations. The Germans certainly had the technology to match anything the Soviets built. Yet, due to design considerations, these two armies fielded tanks with very different capabilities. The T-34 had superior cross-country mobility because it was emphasized in the design process, not because the Germans didn’t have the technology.

Even within the forces of a single nation, you find the simultaneous development and production of very different designs intended for different missions. All these designs represent the current state of their technology. By 1944, the Germans were simultaneously producing 9 different kinds of fighter aircraft in significant quantities (over 100). The range of capabilities from Me-109’s to Me-262’s to He-163’s to Me-410’s is huge. Yet, they all came from the same nation at the same level of technology, because they were designed for different roles.

HOI3 offers the player excellent opportunities for technology research, but very little in the way of design. For example, you can research better engines, airframes, weapons, and fuel tanks for your interceptors. But, you get little chance to change mix of design elements to create a new type of aircraft (some preset instances exist such as MR fighters). Currently, the capability to create something new is only available to modders.

For the next installment of the HOI series, we should bring that capability to the player, in the game. If I want to design an assault gun for infantry support…in 1938…that should be possible, within the technology available at that time. If I decide I want to increase (or decrease) the ratio of machine guns and mortars in new infantry units (design new infantry battalion) then I should have that option. This would obviously result in a unit with combat capabilities and costs different from the ‘basic’ version. An IC-limited nation would choose less armament (Italy), while a manpower-limited nation would chose more (Germany).

This system would better reflect the vast variety of WWII combat units and equipment. It will appeal to the ‘History Nuts’ who argue endlessly about why their favorite units aren’t included and whether or not the Scharnhorst was a BC or a BB or a CA (in fact, it was just a Scharnhorst…a design that made different tradeoffs between speed, armor, and weaponry). It will appeal to micro-managers who like to tinker with the pieces. It appeals to the builders/modders/designers who don’t have the time or ability to make their own ‘mod’. And, it need not add complexity for those who don’t want it. Just turn it over to the AI as some currently do with diplomacy, espionage, or even combat.

How would it work? Split research and design into separate functions. Research would be in basic sciences with military application such as ballistics, metallurgy, electronics, optics, hydraulics, engines, etc. The technology behind heavy/medium/light tank engines is all the same. This research expands the envelope of the possible. Differences come in the design stage.

Design is where the specific tradeoffs of price and performance elements are balanced. There are a couple of ways the design stage could be implemented. One way would be to allow the player to specify a few hard requirements (as in, ‘I need an aircraft with 400km range and 5 air-attack’) and allow the game to fill in the other characteristics (cost, fuel use, time to build, etc).

Another way would be to allow the player to set priorities. For example, ‘design an infantry unit that prioritizes hard-attack and low-cost’. You might allow them to rank their priorities high-to-low or give them points to distribute amongst the capabilities. Then, the game would offer the player a design based on their priorities and their current technology.

In either case, the player now has a new unit type available on the production screen.

The old ‘interceptor’, ‘fighter’, ‘multi-role’ types should be replaced with more specific names (something like Spitfire XIV and Hurricane Mk II). For player-developed designs, it would be up to the player to name them (defaulting to something like ‘aircraft model 12’). There would be no automatic updating of old designs (unless the player opts for AI control). If you want to replace your P-40’s with P-51’s, you need to create a design and upgrade whichever units you want to change.

Personally, I believe this would add a significant amount of flavor and ‘fun’ to the game.
 

marginoferror

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Research and design are completely different concepts. Through research, we learn to make armor that offers better protection for a given amount of weight. Design is the art of deciding how much of that armor a particular vehicle should have, given its mission and the tradeoffs that we’re willing to accept (fuel use, speed, off-road mobility, etc).

While there were minor differences in the basic technology employed by the major combatants of WWII, it was design that had the most impact on actual operations. The Germans certainly had the technology to match anything the Soviets built. Yet, due to design considerations, these two armies fielded tanks with very different capabilities. The T-34 had superior cross-country mobility because it was emphasized in the design process, not because the Germans didn’t have the technology.

Even within the forces of a single nation, you find the simultaneous development and production of very different designs intended for different missions. All these designs represent the current state of their technology. By 1944, the Germans were simultaneously producing 9 different kinds of fighter aircraft in significant quantities (over 100). The range of capabilities from Me-109’s to Me-262’s to He-163’s to Me-410’s is huge. Yet, they all came from the same nation at the same level of technology, because they were designed for different roles.

HOI3 offers the player excellent opportunities for technology research, but very little in the way of design. For example, you can research better engines, airframes, weapons, and fuel tanks for your interceptors. But, you get little chance to change mix of design elements to create a new type of aircraft (some preset instances exist such as MR fighters). Currently, the capability to create something new is only available to modders.

For the next installment of the HOI series, we should bring that capability to the player, in the game. If I want to design an assault gun for infantry support…in 1938…that should be possible, within the technology available at that time. If I decide I want to increase (or decrease) the ratio of machine guns and mortars in new infantry units (design new infantry battalion) then I should have that option. This would obviously result in a unit with combat capabilities and costs different from the ‘basic’ version. An IC-limited nation would choose less armament (Italy), while a manpower-limited nation would chose more (Germany).

This system would better reflect the vast variety of WWII combat units and equipment. It will appeal to the ‘History Nuts’ who argue endlessly about why their favorite units aren’t included and whether or not the Scharnhorst was a BC or a BB or a CA (in fact, it was just a Scharnhorst…a design that made different tradeoffs between speed, armor, and weaponry). It will appeal to micro-managers who like to tinker with the pieces. It appeals to the builders/modders/designers who don’t have the time or ability to make their own ‘mod’. And, it need not add complexity for those who don’t want it. Just turn it over to the AI as some currently do with diplomacy, espionage, or even combat.

How would it work? Split research and design into separate functions. Research would be in basic sciences with military application such as ballistics, metallurgy, electronics, optics, hydraulics, engines, etc. The technology behind heavy/medium/light tank engines is all the same. This research expands the envelope of the possible. Differences come in the design stage.

Design is where the specific tradeoffs of price and performance elements are balanced. There are a couple of ways the design stage could be implemented. One way would be to allow the player to specify a few hard requirements (as in, ‘I need an aircraft with 400km range and 5 air-attack’) and allow the game to fill in the other characteristics (cost, fuel use, time to build, etc).

Another way would be to allow the player to set priorities. For example, ‘design an infantry unit that prioritizes hard-attack and low-cost’. You might allow them to rank their priorities high-to-low or give them points to distribute amongst the capabilities. Then, the game would offer the player a design based on their priorities and their current technology.

In either case, the player now has a new unit type available on the production screen.

The old ‘interceptor’, ‘fighter’, ‘multi-role’ types should be replaced with more specific names (something like Spitfire XIV and Hurricane Mk II). For player-developed designs, it would be up to the player to name them (defaulting to something like ‘aircraft model 12’). There would be no automatic updating of old designs (unless the player opts for AI control). If you want to replace your P-40’s with P-51’s, you need to create a design and upgrade whichever units you want to change.

Personally, I believe this would add a significant amount of flavor and ‘fun’ to the game.

I agree it would add flavor, but in other games I have played, giving the player the ability to create custom designs to match custom strategies just heightens the player's advantage over the AI, which almost always has to stick to historical blueprints. It encourages min/maxing, especially since no game model can very accurately represent reality and since AIs are beholden to bugs in the model.

For all of HOI3 and Semper Fi up until FtM, defensiveness and toughness had practically no effect on combat, despite the designers' intent. This meant that the techs that improved those stats were also useless, and techs that made tradeoffs to increase those stats were worse than useless. Even without the ability to customize design, the player could gain an advantage just by not researching those techs, while the AI was forced to research them because it was in their script. Customized designs would certainly magnify that sort of problem.
 

Syphus

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Frankly I'm not really sure having design as separate matters unless you're playing a game like Alpha Centauri or Gal Civ where you build units out of individual parts.

Unless you're arguing for that here, I'm really not sure.
 

DanSez

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One can hope for the future. The great problem with the design concept of the current tech levels are that the player and the AI will tend to research to same vanilla yearly level, not to what was national/historic/design levels.

1941 comparing the best of the best on the eastern front the Russian T-34 should be a 40gun 42mobility 40reliable 42armour
and the PzIIIg/PZIVe would be 40gun 38mob 40reliable 38arm but most likely in the game you will get flat 40's facing each other.
Yes, yes historians, there were less than a thousand T-34s in 1941 and the vast majority were of the BT-5 class or less which muddles even more the vanilla mix of unit building and deployment used in the game. An armor unit of mostly BT-5's should be identified and remain so until pulled out of line and upgraded. I do see the current system as a compromise (ie gamplay decision) balancing information/differentation (types of units) with gamespeed.

To OP point, a given set of early decisions (lke the ones in HPP) could be used to setup "design flavor" so each nation's weapons systems could be represented and making upgrades a process of pulling units out of line for refitting.
 

unmerged(162341)

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I think much more important advancement in HOI IV should be on two other fields:Industry and military cadre.

1.Industry.Quality and quantity of basic industrial material(steel an alluminium in the frst place)that will influence production.For instance for nations capability to produce tanks etc important prerequisite should be availability of quality steel,and for planes alluminium.Steel and alluminium industry should be represented in this 2 materials.
Allso not every factory can produce tanks,or plane, so overal IC is not acurate representation.Large factory of shoes,pans,or bananas, is industry generaly speaking,but it is not the same as Krupp for instance if we need tanks...this diferentiation of industry should be deepened in HOI IV.

2.Manpower cadre.Pilots?How do we get pilots?Buy training.What quality pilots?If you loose to many expirienced pilots is it easy to compensate this with rockies by just take a number from generalised manpower pool of the nation?
Or tank crews?Or even infantry?HOI IV needs to take care of this more than research.
 

Alex_brunius

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I think much more important advancement in HOI IV should be on two other fields:Industry and military cadre.

1.Industry.Quality and quantity of basic industrial material(steel an alluminium in the frst place)that will influence production.For instance for nations capability to produce tanks etc important prerequisite should be availability of quality steel,and for planes alluminium.Steel and alluminium industry should be represented in this 2 materials.
Allso not every factory can produce tanks,or plane, so overal IC is not acurate representation.Large factory of shoes,pans,or bananas, is industry generaly speaking,but it is not the same as Krupp for instance if we need tanks...this diferentiation of industry should be deepened in HOI IV.
Actually 90-95% of the value in the tank is not produced at the tank assembly factory, so I don't think IC needs to be split up. What I'm saying is that a tank is made up of parts: rolled steel from the steel mill, steel parts from smaller plants, nuts and bolts, a gun, a radio, wheels, mechanisms an engine and so on. ALL of these things can be used in many other fields in the military to produce many other weapons of war that might not even resemble a tank.

The final assembly is such a small part of the full Industrial chain that splitting up IC into several different parts would make nations less flexible in whats possible to produce then they were in reality. Sure initially say Soviet should not be experienced in producing ships, but that is already possible to model in HoI3 using practical values.

What I would like to see more Industrial differentiation in is replacements. If my Tank division with 300 tanks full strength lose 30% strength then I should need to replace 90 "tank units" from reserve tank pool for example. If many tank divisions lose strength this pool will grow so small that no new tank divisions can be formed and if its empty tank divisions with low tank strength will not be reinforced with new tanks at all.

So a separation of the tanks/vehicles and the manpower in the divisions. Soft attack hits the men and strains your manpower, and hard attack hits the tanks and strains your IC.

2.Manpower cadre.Pilots?How do we get pilots?Buy training.What quality pilots?If you loose to many expirienced pilots is it easy to compensate this with rockies by just take a number from generalised manpower pool of the nation?
Or tank crews?Or even infantry?HOI IV needs to take care of this more than research.
I fully agree with this part.

It's very expensive to train pilots, sailors or tank crews. They need months of maneuvers/training where their units consume almost as much supplies & fuel as in combat to reach a good training status and master the machines.

If you lose large parts of your elite trained carrier pilots like Japan did and there are no spare planes or fuel in you nation you should have a hard uphill struggle to replace them with effective pilots.
 

21oliver

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If you look at Germany for example, take 10 infantry divisions and you had 10 differently made up units. They seldom produced them by what was on paper (supposed to be). As for the Pilots i agree, a major difference between the USA early on was that Japan gave their pilots like 3-4x the training hours of the USA, but we went after and retrieved our downed pilots, they didnt. So as the war progressed they were forced to reduce their training hours to fill the void until eventually it was far below our training time. I believe some of the mods try and work on this aspect.

As far as the units go, and im not sure people want to go in this direction or not but its like i mentioned in the past we used in PBM games back in the day. The Divisional parts would be built in seperate pieces that you would then form together to make a division. This allows you to essentially have many different versions of similar units. Alot of work likely for the AI.

Im not one that cares about whether we would gain an advantage over the AI because i dont think much of the AI or that it ever will be much of an opponent, but i do think that it may be more work then they want to do, or that most players want to deal with. As it is the system is more advanced then i anticipated it would be.
 

Syphus

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I fully agree with this part.

It's very expensive to train pilots, sailors or tank crews. They need months of maneuvers/training where their units consume almost as much supplies & fuel as in combat to reach a good training status and master the machines.

If you lose large parts of your elite trained carrier pilots like Japan did and there are no spare planes or fuel in you nation you should have a hard uphill struggle to replace them with effective pilots.

Regardless of the fact that manpower is a complete abstraction and the training and all that is abstracted in there, the US did in fact basically try and pluck civilians and give them basic training:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_Pilot_Training_Program
 

Alex_brunius

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Cybvep

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I like the concept, but I can also see several problems with implementation. Firstly, as previously mentioned, it will be hard to program an AI that understands customised designs well. I have similar experiences as marginoferror, i.e. custom unit creation usually cripples the AI and encourages min-maxing. Frankly, the AI has problems even with HOI3's division designer. It will not add brigades to existing units, for example. It will not create temporary division designs in order to increase its practical and upgrade individual brigades in the future. It doesn't respond dynamically to anything in that regard at all. The player can easily see that he/she needs more ATs, ARTs, MOTs or whatever else, while the AI doesn't realise that.

Secondly, even if the AI was efficient (which is doubtful), many players would complain that nation X or Y doesn't use its historical blueprints. I can easily see those posts from here. "WHERE ARE THE GERMAN TIGERS??!!! The game is soooooo unhistorical without them!". Remember that if you add more dynamic elements to the game, then it becomes more sandbox-like, too. We all know that not everybody likes it.

Thirdly, there are many potential problems with the way this feature affects balance. It would be really hard not to make all possible combinations overpowered. It's hard to balance the game even now, let alone with this new potential feature in place.

Don't get me wrong - I like the idea, but I feel that it needs to be streamlined and simplified in order to work in HOI environment. Let's look at the current research system in HOI3. It's supposed to be dynamic, but in practice there is little to no dynamism involved. Pretty much all major nations end up with similar techs in most categories. In case of some units it's hard to even find any differences at all, e.g. in case of infantry. Everyone keeps infantry techs up-to-date, because they are crucial. Moreover, rigid "historical year" system serves as a major obstacle to variety, too. This is sth that should be changed IMO. Instead of reinventing the wheel, the basics of the existing system should be improved. I, for one, would welcome a more advanced "tech difficulty" system and wouldn't miss "historical year" at all. I would also love to see mutually exclusive tech paths, so picking "tank mobility" or "tank reliability" would be meaningful.
 

Bsharp

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Responding to the criticism that the AI couldn't handle it, raised by a couple of posters...

Certainly, the more options you provide the player, the harder it is for the AI to keep up. However, I don't hear anyone arguing for an end to the intelligence system, or the trade system, or the division designer, or any of the other player options that the AI has trouble with. These are fun, they add interest for the player...and the AI doesn't do as well. Cumulatively, they make the game quite easy for a human, but that doesn't make them bad.

The first option is to work on the AI. And, when that reaches the point of diminishing return, handicap the player in other ways (difficulty settings). No one wants the player locked into only simplistic functions that put the AI and human on an equal footing. If we went that direction, we'd end up with chess.

The question should not be 'can the AI handle it'. Rather, 'would I like to be able to do this'?
 

21oliver

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Yo have alot of posters here who seemingly own PI stock as they are more often then not Pro Designer rather then Pro Player seemingly always coming up with ideas to shoot any suggestion you may have down. I say again that AI's in general are not very good nor likely to be very good, if thats what holds up ideas that are interesting to players PI should just get over themselves. The suggestion here Im not sure is really an AI question however as opposed to is it really needed/wanted question. I for one do not feel the immediate need to be able to make 10 infantry divisions all totally different. Would it be more historical and realistic? probably, IMO its just added depth in ways that arent needed, but thats just my opinion, and we all have them. I personally feel the tech trees (and even more so with the modders) have done a nice job of adding variety and depth to the game. I look at it this way, this is a Strategic game, dealing in Nations and Conquest, that means (at least to me) the priorities should be top (nation) and work down (unit). If it was for example a tank game, then it would be different, it would be reversed.
 

RickInVA

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I think there is a lot to say for both sides, but my sympathy lies with those that want more control. I could envision a Unit Creator where you would have sliders for various things, for a Infantry Brigade perhaps:

Men
Officers
Rifles (drop down for rifle type [tech])
Sub-MG (dd)
Light MG
Heavy MG
Morter
etc.
etc.

As I fiddle with the TO&E of the unit I get a running change to a "what will the stats of this unit be" box to the side (similar to the one we now get for the completed division). So while I may think its great to load up the unit with lots of everything, I may find that its movement speed is low and its supply cost is through the roof, not to mention the vast IC cost and time to train in all those weapons, etc.. Aslo its replacement cost would be a lot higher if it was damaged as there would be a need to replace all those weapons as well as the people. If I like my creation I can name and save it. Or I can use the out of the box items.

So many possible things to do, so few people with unlimited time and money to make it happen.
 

shepherd352

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PI could deliver design options if tanks (and other units) could be built using options for their components (as currently occurs with ships). That way, you could reduce the cost/time of a unit by selecting components at a lower tech than your current maximum. You could design a unit to your own preferences.

As a down-side, this would probably result in losing the somewhat ahistoric field upgrades. The only way you could upgrade a unit would be to remove it from combat and put it through a formal upgrade process. It would be more realistic but less popular.
 

21oliver

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The slider idea is a good one if its going to be done. I just dont envision the need. In a "Conquer the World" type game im more interested in them getting certain things right (How about me not having to click on every unit so that it receives upgrades? How about me allowing the AI to handle my trade but being able to click off certain nations without having to have the circumstances right and "Embargo" them...)

Im all for making the game as diverse as possible, again i just think there is so many options available, especially with tech trees too that im not so sure its a real need, and im a guy that supports change lol but we all have our own fav topics, so i understand.
 

Herz2146

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I'm not entirely sure why people are stuck on this concept of design being implemented into the game. I never played HOI2 so I'm not sure how it worked in that game but I do understand it was removed from HOI3. If a player can design their own equipment the AI just simply isn't going to win, ever. I like the current system. It's not perfect, but it works in providing an in-depth experience tailored to historical standards. Obviously the stock progression isn't amazing but that's where mods come in. A company like Paradox thrives off of its modding community. If you don't use mods for games like HOI3 you're missing out on a huge part of the Paradox experience.

HOI3, in my own opinion, wasn't designed to be completely ahistorical. Obviously in theory you can deviate as much as you want, but at the same time the stock game can only do so much in terms of historical deviation. Implementing a player choice in equipment design doesn't just open the door to unhistorical games. It destroys the door. You can limit the design possibilities all you want. It will still happen regardless.
 

RickInVA

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I'm not entirely sure why people are stuck on this concept of design being implemented into the game. I never played HOI2 so I'm not sure how it worked in that game but I do understand it was removed from HOI3. If a player can design their own equipment the AI just simply isn't going to win, ever.

I have three general responses.

1) The AI hardly ever wins as it is, so if you can increase player enjoyment why not do it?

2) If pros and cons were properly balanced then the AI would not be at a disadvantage. That is, if making a "better" unit cost the proper amount more to produce then it would even out. I.e., if I can make a Arm that is actually twice as good as a standard one, but it costs twice as much such that, all other things being equal, I will have 1 and the other guy will have 2 and we will fight to a draw, then no advantage is granted, just flavor is added.

3) My self designed unit may not even be "better". Lets say I want a new Arm unit that can go speed 10 to keep up with my stock Mech units. I want max Gun, and max Reliability, and I need max Speed, so I end up trading off a whole heck of a lot of Armor. I get my desired unit, but is it "better"? It does what I want, but once I get it in combat it may perform poorly.

But after all the pro and con, I think the best reason to do something like this is becuase many players would find it to be fun, and isn't that the main point of a game after all?
 

Cybvep

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If the game is already complex enough to be such a hassle to balance and to cause trouble to the AI, then making it even more complex won't help us in any way. HOI series shouldn't be a sink for "nice to have" ideas, but a set-up of things which work well in conjunction with each other. There are sooooo many potential improvements that I don't really think the mentioned feature should be a priority.
 

Nukeitall

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Frankly they need some interface modifications to make the entire research system less irritating. Some additional settings like: "KEEP RESEARCHING THIS" or "DON'T RESEARCH THIS CRAP" would be nice. Alternatively a "RESEARCH OPTIMALLY" button would be good too.
 

21oliver

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I am not necc in favor or against the idea but do pretty much agree with Rick. Never take the AI into consideration with these things as it pretty much is horrible anyway. I dont think the units are better as much as they are unique. Again look at any OOB from WWII and the German Army. Take 10 infantry divisions and they are made up 10 different ways. They never get made up as they are supposed to on paper, they get made up by whatever is on hand at the time, incl upgrades when available.

My point again is this is a Conquer not Tank type game. There are so many issues that need to be worked on involving nations and entire armies, i just think this is a micro element, but hey if you guys want it go for it.