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Miro_pl96

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In WWW i say that Hungary had 3 research slots is that true with all minors are some countries like Yugoslavia, Canada and Poland get 4. I know that minors get 2 extra slots but the majors get an extra one so they have 1 more anyway.
I do not know if there is another thread if there is sorry
 
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Sun_Killer

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the majors start with 4 and get one extra. , so in total 5. The minors start with 3 and can have 2 extra, so total also 5.
But we already know that mods will add alot of technologies. So it will be interesting to see if the amount of slots is easiely modable or if they just reduce the days needed for reseach across the board to compensate for more techs.

Edit: That majors and minors can have the same amount of tech output is quiet ahostorical but it makes the smaller nations more playable. In HoI 3 you had to make a major balance act as minor to get any reserch done, between training officers, diplo points, spy points and points for reserach.
 

Augustus93

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the majors start with 4 and get one extra. , so in total 5. The minors start with 3 and can have 2 extra, so total also 5.
But we already know that mods will add alot of technologies. So it will be interesting to see if the amount of slots is easiely modable or if the just reduce the days needed for reseach across the board to compensate for more techs.
It is probably very easy to modify the number of research slots. I can't imagine it being locked.
 
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Miro_pl96

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the majors start with 4 and get one extra. , so in total 5. The minors start with 3 and can have 2 extra, so total also 5.
But we already know that mods will add alot of technologies. So it will be interesting to see if the amount of slots is easiely modable or if they just reduce the days needed for reseach across the board to compensate for more techs.

Edit: That majors and minors can have the same amount of tech output is quiet ahostorical but it makes the smaller nations more playable. In HoI 3 you had to make a major balance act as minor to get any reserch done, between training officers, diplo points, spy points and points for reserach.
oh really they have 4 huh i must have mis remembered the amount could have sworn it was 5 though
 

Kikaider

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Also worth noting that
a) it will take the minors a while to even get the fourth slot (slower than most majors will reach fifth from the looks of things) and
B) to get the fifth slot will require having 50+ factories, no easy task for all but the largest minors

So I will think the majors will easily keep ahead of the minors in most tech, generally speaking (especially as many major focus trees give many more research speed bonuses than the generic tree seems too)
 
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Miro_pl96

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not really it takes 490 days to research all the research slots if they have the factories that is, and if your larger minors like china, india, Canada and Poland i think the 50 factories will be easy
 

rafan

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not really it takes 490 days to research all the research slots if they have the factories that is, and if your larger minors like china, india, Canada and Poland i think the 50 factories will be easy

In last known picks of Poland we saw that Poland starts with 27 factories from with 17 are civilian,
so it wont be that easy.
 
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makapse

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the focus tree also has free factories along the path to the research slot. Either that or factory output research speed. Then there are other focuses the do give free mil factory as we have seen in WWW so i think there are some 18 free factories in the paths. And then there is the all time favorite fascist start minors who can take the factories they need militarily.
 

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The UI looks like it can easily handle a few more than 5 research slots, though that might be dependent on resolution. It is probably not even a hard limit, so my guess is simply adding multiple +1 Research slot to the policy tree gives you more.
 

Augustus93

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The UI looks like it can easily handle a few more than 5 research slots, though that might be dependent on resolution. It is probably not even a hard limit, so my guess is simply adding multiple +1 Research slot to the policy tree gives you more.
It would probably scroll down if it has more than what the UI can "handle".
 
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Katarian

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the focus tree also has free factories along the path to the research slot. Either that or factory output research speed. Then there are other focuses the do give free mil factory as we have seen in WWW so i think there are some 18 free factories in the paths. And then there is the all time favorite fascist start minors who can take the factories they need militarily.

18 free factories would be quite a lot. On the Hungary WWW at 18:26 we very briefly, you have pause lightning quickly as Daniel opens and mouses over to the right of the Focus Tree, get to see Construction Effort and Armament Effort only gives one free factory each so 18 free factories would be a stretch unless the later focuses give more then one factory at a time. I'd guess the generic focuses will give between 7 and 18 free factories (I am assume all the Construction Effort and Armament Effort focuses give free factories, but I'm not sure about Infrastructure Effort) but that requires taking at least four extra focuses and adding 280 days to the time needed to get the fifth slot.
 
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rafan

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18 free factories would be quite a lot. On the Hungary WWW at 18:26 we very briefly, you have pause lightning quickly as Daniel opens and mouses over to the right of the Focus Tree, get to see Construction Effort and Armament Effort only gives one free factory each so 18 free factories would be a stretch unless the later focuses give more then one factory at a time. I'd guess the generic focuses will give between 7 and 18 free factories (I am assume all the Construction Effort and Armament Effort focuses give free factories, but I'm not sure about Infrastructure Effort) but that requires taking at least four extra focuses and adding 280 days to the time needed to get the fifth slot.

If we go by Finland and Hungary www then then all 3 Armament Effort focuses give one factorie each, 1st and 2nd Construction effort give one factory each and 3 CE give two factories,
Inafrastructure effort increses infarstructure in states. Alll together from 6 focusees (420 days) minors get 7 factories.
 
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Miro_pl96

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In last known picks of Poland we saw that Poland starts with 27 factories from with 17 are civilian,
so it wont be that easy.
I disagree because we say with Hungary in WWW that it took 425 days to do a factory when they had 2-3 civilian so i think with 17 itll be maybe 300 days (most likely less but im being conservative) and with the construction focuses itll be less so maybe before 1938 you can have 5 research slots and wiht the free factories with the focuses I think itll be a bit longer but easy
 

rafan

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I disagree because we say with Hungary in WWW that it took 425 days to do a factory when they had 2-3 civilian so i think with 17 itll be maybe 300 days (most likely less but im being conservative) and with the construction focuses itll be less so maybe before 1938 you can have 5 research slots and wiht the free factories with the focuses I think itll be a bit longer but easy

You are forgeting about civilian factories that go on the consumer goods and are lost for player.
In picture from twiter im talking about, from 17 factories 8 go for consumer goods so only 9 can be used for building.

The picture is taken in 1936 april 1st with nine factories buiding military factory that is almost complete and if i remember corectly civilian factories cost right now more than military.

I wont tell that it is not posible but it will be close to war when they will be able to get it as its is now.
 
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Augustus93

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What also needs to be taken into account is the limitation that the population in a given state has upon the number of factories that can actually be built there.
 

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What also needs to be taken into account is the limitation that the population in a given state has upon the number of factories that can actually be built there.
It's not population exactly anymore, it's state "type" (small island, rural, metropolis etc), but the idea is the same, with 1-3 states (i.e., like Austria and Hungary) a minor may not even be able to fit 50 factories, let alone build them.
 

potski

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What do you mean, they "may not"?

Code:
Megalopolis Region 12
Metropolis Region 10
Dense Urban Region 8
Urban Region 6
Sparse Urban Region 5
Developed Rural Region 4
Rural Region 2
Pastoral Region 1
Enclave 0
Tiny Island 0
Wasteland 0
So unless a minor has five major city states (metropolis)...

Hungary only has three states. We saw on the video one is Alfold, urban region with 6 unlocked slots, 4 already built at the start of the game. Transdanubia, urban with 6 slots, 4 already filled. And finally Northern Hungary, dense urban (it includes Budapest) with 8 slots and all 8 are already filled. This gives Hungary a starting amount of 16 factories and the potential through construction alone, only to build 4 more, for a maximum of 20. Plus the factories from NFs.

With his current research level, Daniel was going to take just under 2 years to build those 4 extra factories, because he chose military factories. Civilian factories cost twice as much construction, but each one he constructs reduces the time taken for the next one. So that's about 3-3.5 years to build 4 more civilian factories.

But then he trades away some of his civilian factories to get some steel, immediately reducing the civilian factories he has available for construction. He doesn't show the effect on this, but it's going to make building the 4 extra military factories take over three years.

Lower Austria state (with Vienna) is dense urban 8 slots. As you would expect, Austria's mountains should reduce it's industrial capability, but we don't see exactly what slots were in Upper Austria and Tyrol. Except that on annexation his total number of factories increased from 17 (he had completed one of his own factory constructions) to only 26, so 9 factories captured from Austria.

He gained only one civilian factory for construction, probably not because there were 8 military / 1 civilian but because most civilian factories in Austria had to be used for his increased consumer goods demand. But he then immediately traded two more civilian factories (making a total of 4) to get even more steel for his war, before realising that he has more steel than his factories can use, and reduces it back to 3 factories buying steel. Overall that means EVEN AFTER CAPTURING AND ANNEXING AUSTRIA he has no more civilian factories available to construct stuff than he had at the start of the game. His early wars means he has to put as much effort as possible into military factories for infantry weapons, rather than building up his industry. You see he also choses to go down NF branches to get things other than the Construction Effort free factories.

Nevertheless, his conquest of Czechoslovakia brings him to a total of 47 factories and almost to being a major nation.

There's no doubt some of the larger minor fascist countries should be able to get enough factories to reach 50 factories by conquest. But they can't do it within their own borders. And it sends WT to a point where he is now risking war with the Allies. Plus his choice of NFs so far means he is still over a year from one extra research slot, never mind the second.

Democratic/neutral countries, even those starting slightly larger than Hungary, will struggle to get anywhere near to major status early in the war just by construction and NFs. Their number of states, and that some of these will be rural, prevents them expanding too much.

As a plausible thing I don't see an issue with Hungary-Austria-Czechoslovakia having the research slots of Germany. But it looks like it will be 1939 before that happens.
 
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What do you mean, they "may not"?


So unless a minor has five major city states (metropolis)...

Hungary only has three states. We saw on the video one is Alfold, urban region with 6 unlocked slots, 4 already built at the start of the game. Transdanubia, urban with 6 slots, 4 already filled. And finally Northern Hungary, dense urban (it includes Budapest) with 8 slots and all 8 are already filled. This gives Hungary a starting amount of 16 factories and the potential through construction alone, only to build 4 more, for a maximum of 20. Plus the factories from NFs.

With his current research level, Daniel was going to take just under 2 years to build those 4 extra factories, because he chose military factories. Civilian factories cost twice as much construction, but each one he constructs reduces the time taken for the next one. So that's about 3-3.5 years to build 4 more civilian factories.

But then he trades away some of his civilian factories to get some steel, immediately reducing the civilian factories he has available for construction. He doesn't show the effect on this, but it's going to make building the 4 extra military factories take over three years.

Lower Austria state (with Vienna) is dense urban 8 slots. As you would expect, Austria's mountains should reduce it's industrial capability, but we don't see exactly what slots were in Upper Austria and Tyrol. Except that on annexation his total number of factories increased from 17 (he had completed one of his own factory constructions) to only 26, so 9 factories captured from Austria.

He gained only one civilian factory for construction, probably not because there were 8 military / 1 civilian but because most civilian factories in Austria had to be used for his increased consumer goods demand. But he then immediately traded two more civilian factories (making a total of 4) to get even more steel for his war, before realising that he has more steel than his factories can use, and reduces it back to 3 factories buying steel. Overall that means EVEN AFTER CAPTURING AND ANNEXING AUSTRIA he has no more civilian factories available to construct stuff than he had at the start of the game. His early wars means he has to put as much effort as possible into military factories for infantry weapons, rather than building up his industry. You see he also choses to go down NF branches to get things other than the Construction Effort free factories.

Nevertheless, his conquest of Czechoslovakia brings him to a total of 47 factories and almost to being a major nation.

There's no doubt some of the larger minor fascist countries should be able to get enough factories to reach 50 factories by conquest. But they can't do it within their own borders. And it sends WT to a point where he is now risking war with the Allies. Plus his choice of NFs so far means he is still over a year from one extra research slot, never mind the second.

Democratic/neutral countries, even those starting slightly larger than Hungary, will struggle to get anywhere near to major status early in the war just by construction and NFs. Their number of states, and that some of these will be rural, prevents them expanding too much.

As a plausible thing I don't see an issue with Hungary-Austria-Czechoslovakia having the research slots of Germany. But it looks like it will be 1939 before that happens.

No I totally agree with you that it will be nigh impossible for the majority minors to get 50 just by building (even Daniel or Wiz or some other PDox employee said by far the easiest way was through conquest). I could buy Canada/the Raj/China being able to reach 50+ factories, and maybe Poland/Brazil/Sweden/Czechoslovakia/Yugoslavia as well (depending on their province types), even if they JUST having the capacity to hit exactly 50, but not really many others and it will take a long while for any of them to hit 50.

The reason for the "may" (which is more of a "probably") however, is because of how the construction techs unlock BONUS slots, especially concentrated industry, so that 8 limit in lower Austria might become 11 or 12 or 14 even as early as sometime in 1937 (taking 2x 20-25% slots on the base + any national focus unlock bonuses). And without ACTUALLY knowing what countries have what state types and how many + what all the focuses explicitly do (games being balanced still and we don't have it to look into), we just don't have the information to rule out who can and can't hit 50 just by internal growth. There's no way to do so without guessing, and so I allowed the possibility that some could hit 50.

PS: Thank you for working out the numbers btw, I think it makes the point quite well that the worry of minors keeping up with research easily is unfounded.
 
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Augustus93

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No I totally agree with you that it will be nigh impossible for the majority minors to get 50 just by building (even Daniel or Wiz or some other PDox employee said by far the easiest way was through conquest). I could buy Canada/the Raj/China being able to reach 50+ factories, and maybe Poland/Brazil/Sweden/Czechoslovakia/Yugoslavia as well (depending on their province types), even if they JUST having the capacity to hit exactly 50, but not really many others and it will take a long while for any of them to hit 50.

The reason for the "may" (which is more of a "probably") however, is because of how the construction techs unlock BONUS slots, especially concentrated industry, so that 8 limit in lower Austria might become 11 or 12 or 14 even as early as sometime in 1937 (taking 2x 20-25% slots on the base + any national focus unlock bonuses). And without ACTUALLY knowing what countries have what state types and how many + what all the focuses explicitly do (games being balanced still and we don't have it to look into), we just don't have the information to rule out who can and can't hit 50 just by internal growth. There's no way to do so without guessing, and so I allowed the possibility that some could hit 50.

PS: Thank you for working out the numbers btw, I think it makes the point quite well that the worry of minors keeping up with research easily is unfounded.
I think neither of the countries that you mentioned can actually attain 50 slots. It is quite a large number and Brazil is mostly jungle wasteland with basically almost no slots. Poland probably have too few provinces but is the best "candidate" as far as attaining 50 slots. Czechoslovakia most certainly have less than 50 slots, they are not much bigger than Hungary for example. Sweden should definitely not have anywhere close to 50 slots, it was so not undeveloped at the time of WW2 and the population was around the same as in Austria.