Research should be outside the players control

[kviiri]

I think overall the research should be a combination of drift and drive mechanics. The player should be able to steer their country's research, but not without outside forces drifting it too. Innovations should spread within markets, over trade routes, and through warfare among other ways.

 

[SemirDahak]

The way these forums talk, everything Paradox does is the greatest mistake in strategy games. And yet their games are usually fine and somehow continue to sell well and make money.

Oh please don't say such things, my friend

A) Such mistake is not made by Paradox alone, that's how research works in almost all of the genre. Vic2 was a glourious exception from that rule. We have seen lately an interesting Civ VI system, with separate social and technical discoveries, which also acknowledged that part of tech cost may be payed through "practical research" (building, discovering things, engaging in diplomacy). Then we've got an innovative system of innovations in CK3 which is much more realistic than "click-button research". So I expected Vic3 to be even more innovative, maybe ground-breaking for the industry

B) That's a mistake because it makes simulation less realistic, but it has little negative impact on the gameplay. So it wouldn't make Victoria 3 bad game, just separate discoveries and inventions would make it better, more interesting and better at shaping people's idea about scientific research. Another serious flaw of the tech tree - it makes research repetable, predictable, boring. So it's acceptable in a game, where science is not an important part of gameplay (Total Wars for example), but it's a wasted potential in society sim like Victoria

Taking above into consideration, I really hope they'll come up with a more ingenious design than classic technology tree. XIX century was such an exceptional period when it comes to scientific achievements, that there'll be no better opportunity to get creative than when designing Victoria 3

 

[Neva115]

I actually liked the system in Masters Of Orion, where you chose a general area for research and you unlocked random techs within that area of research. Normal tech trees are kinda bland ngl.

 

[kviiri]

I actually liked the system in Masters Of Orion, where you chose a general area for research and you unlocked random techs within that area of research. Normal tech trees are kinda bland ngl.

Assuming you're talking of the original, you still choose what you research (but the options you have are limited by luck of the draw, with some techs obtainable only by trade or theft). Anyway, I think the main weakness of that model apart from those cases where you get none of the three big production-boosting techs is that it doesn't simulate the natural flow of ideas at all, apart from theft and trade between powers.

 

[Cymsdale]

I like Stellaris's card system. It's a healthy mix of RNG and player control. I don't think it would translate directly here though, and Paradox does seem to like their systems to be slightly different between games.

I don't know exactly what Vic3 has planned, but I do like some RNG in my games; keeps things interesting. I don't want a tech tree where you just follow a meta. I want discoveries to feel like actual discoveries.

 

[Searry]

What I wanted for Imperator was an "Eureka" based system that when something specific happens, things will unlock and then slowly things start to get adopted.

Another great variant on research is the Shadow Empire tech system but that game really surpasses any other 4x in the market right now.

 

[EUnderhill]

Sold well compared to what though?

Fredrik's expectations

 

[Woifee]

Vic 2 did it good. On the one hand there was research the player has controll off, but there also were inventions done by smart people in the state.

 

[Kovax]

In my opinion, the best approach would be to have research as a cumulative result of:
the strength or funding of related industries or government branches
government research grants or subsidies
spread from previous discoverers through trade networks and non-hostile neighbors
general level of education in your society
clerics and teachers (the latter after implementing mandatory public education)

Most of those could be manipulated to varying degrees by the player, but each of them would have additional effects and complications, so you couldn't just max out all of your research inputs without causing other issues, yet many of those would steadily increase through the normal course of economic and social development.

Each field could gain a few points per day from each of those sources, some of them fluctuating randomly, others fairly stable over time, with no visible research bar to tell you exactly WHEN the research would complete. All you'd know is that something in field X is being researched, and at some time in the future, depending on the things that would realistically influence it, it would be discovered, and you would find out what exactly out of several possibilities had been discovered, rather than a predictable totally linear progression. At most, putting the technical field in a color to represent its "approximate" level of development of the next tech could be implemented, so a red tech would be practically unresearched, yellow meaning well on the way but far from done, and green would indicate nearing completion.

I consider that an improvement over 100% control or totally random development.

 

[dwarf40]

I'm going to ignore all the talk related to the investment pool thing. Plenty of other threads to discuss it.

Also, I find it interesting that so many people disagree with me, yet nobody seems to be defending Vicy2's system. I can only assume that people want an innovative new system, they just disagree with my proposal. I will need to think of a better idea.

And is the only alternative this industry can come up with is "selecting a research focus to get a random technology"?

If the spirit of the nation wants to be all in on Impressionism or Ideological Thought, so be it.

But how is the government enslaving the minds of our nation's philosophers and artists EUnderhill? Hooooow?

A better solution is player have direct control of research plans in military techs and business regulations, with uncontrollable civil techs development as prerequisite/research time reduction for them.

An interesting idea, but I worry that this will give the player too little control over research. Maybe have military techs act as prerequisites to civil techs?

I think overall the research should be a combination of drift and drive mechanics. The player should be able to steer their country's research, but not without outside forces drifting it too. Innovations should spread within markets, over trade routes, and through warfare among other ways.

This is basically what the devs seem to be planning, init? At least, that's what I can glean from the "Everything We Know" post.

What I wanted for Imperator was an "Eureka" based system that when something specific happens, things will unlock and then slowly things start to get adopted.

Another great variant on research is the Shadow Empire tech system but that game really surpasses any other 4x in the market right now.

What is the Shadow Empire system?

In my opinion, the best approach would be to have research as a cumulative result of:
the strength or funding of related industries or government branches
government research grants or subsidies
spread from previous discoverers through trade networks and non-hostile neighbors
general level of education in your society
clerics and teachers (the latter after implementing mandatory public education)

Most of those could be manipulated to varying degrees by the player, but each of them would have additional effects and complications, so you couldn't just max out all of your research inputs without causing other issues, yet many of those would steadily increase through the normal course of economic and social development.

Each field could gain a few points per day from each of those sources, some of them fluctuating randomly, others fairly stable over time, with no visible research bar to tell you exactly WHEN the research would complete. All you'd know is that something in field X is being researched, and at some time in the future, depending on the things that would realistically influence it, it would be discovered, and you would find out what exactly out of several possibilities had been discovered, rather than a predictable totally linear progression. At most, putting the technical field in a color to represent its "approximate" level of development of the next tech could be implemented, so a red tech would be practically unresearched, yellow meaning well on the way but far from done, and green would indicate nearing completion.

I consider that an improvement over 100% control or totally random development.

Not showing the exact progression is weird, but otherwise, I agree 100%. The most important thing is that the individual industries need to be the main source of research. That way only your major industries can be at the cutting edge.
Of course, governments did became major players in research during the 20th century, with the US funding the research of techniques to increase agriculture yields for example.
In addition to the industries should be your philosophers, artists, and scientists. You should be able to give government support to a particular school and style in order to gain its benefits, with the risk of that particular style going out of fashion. Art, in particular, should be heavily reliant on patronage, at least until the late 19th century, where the rise of independent art galleries allowed artists to go outside the academy system, which gave rise to Modern Art.

 

[Vernichtere]

Of course, the research tended to be state-run. In other words, universities and broad education initially depended heavily on patrons. To say now that companies deliberately developed something back then would be an exaggeration.

When we talk about things that do not promise immediate profit, it has always been a question of government support, or patronage. Basic research in physics doesn't bring any profits that can be expected.

And in the game we usually move on a very general level. What is always weird, of course, is the choice itself. Back then, the state didn't really focus on research support. This is not the race into space.

 

[OfficePins]

Imagine demanding a new research system before even seeing how the current one functions.

 

[dwarf40]

Of course, the research tended to be state-run. In other words, universities and broad education initially depended heavily on patrons. To say now that companies deliberately developed something back then would be an exaggeration.

When we talk about things that do not promise immediate profit, it has always been a question of government support, or patronage. Basic research in physics doesn't bring any profits that can be expected.

And in the game we usually move on a very general level. What is always weird, of course, is the choice itself. Back then, the state didn't really focus on research support. This is not the race into space.

Universities did not invent the steam engine or impressionist art.

 

[mursolini]

Of course, the research tended to be state-run. In other words, universities and broad education initially depended heavily on patrons. To say now that companies deliberately developed something back then would be an exaggeration.

Universities didn`t do much research pre-1900s, and then, government didn`t fund them much, either. Both state run research and education are by-product of industrialization.

When we talk about things that do not promise immediate profit, it has always been a question of government support, or patronage. Basic research in physics doesn't bring any profits that can be expected.

Usually an enthusiast that either managed, or didn`t manage to turn passion into successful business venture.
Basic research was usually done, again, by enthusiast or some person that solved a particular problem, and then generalized.

And in the game we usually move on a very general level. What is always weird, of course, is the choice itself. Back then, the state didn't really focus on research support. This is not the race into space.

State started to invest heavily once it became apparent that technological edge creates real added value in military matters, and more often then not, again, in tech that civilian sector was not going to invent itself, like naval gunnery, and artillery.

 

[Vernichtere]

Universities did not create the steam engine or impressionist art.

The universities provided the education necessary to do it, as did the school system in general. The nineteenth century is characterized by a transition to state-financed mass education, which massively promoted progress. The basic research already mentioned often presupposes that people have the money they need to waste time on it.

 

[EUnderhill]

Universities did not invent the steam engine or impressionist art.

No, but they trained the people who went on to produce it at scale. Bridges and "pot-boilery" were the foundation of many an engineering school.

 

[alanschu]

Assuming you're talking of the original, you still choose what you research (but the options you have are limited by luck of the draw, with some techs obtainable only by trade or theft). Anyway, I think the main weakness of that model apart from those cases where you get none of the three big production-boosting techs is that it doesn't simulate the natural flow of ideas at all, apart from theft and trade between powers.

I think that's more MOO2 than MOO1. MOO 1's research screen was this. You had a research budget, and you could allocate that budget across several fields.

 

[OnlyTheWeakFearWords]

Ew, no. I want to actually be able to have fun playing the game. Not letting the game play itself or decide for me what I do next.

 

[wilcoxchar]

Fredrik's expectations

You mean Fredrik's hair's expectations

 

[Kaozarack]

What do you think about the idea of experimental and failed inventions? people didn't always come up with the right thing and sometimes they were quite experimental with their ideas, some were too experimental for the time and others just failed miserably, although I like the idea, I imagine some of you might not like it because it can make room for tasteless memes and too much ahistoricity