Research should be outside the players control

[dwarf40]

I'm not sure if the devs said anything about research yet, but I would like to give my two cents.
Realistically speaking, most research was done outside of government control. Do you really think some government bureaucrat walked inside the universities and told the professors there what theories to study and what art style to use? Especially when nobody at the time has any idea which ideas would become successful or not.
And is universities really the best way to simulate the research process? During this time frame, universities were not the main source of technological advances. New steam engines were made by engineers and new art styles were made by artists. Universities should stick to education and abstract research. I imagine a system where every pop produces pop-specific research points that goes into advances in their field.
That's not to say that the player should be powerless. They should be able to give prizes that will encourage the pops to make a better mousetrap or something. And they should be able to choose which art school to shower with government patronage (of course, Impressionism was made in spite of official support, not because of it). And we should be able to fund military research.
Obviously, it too late at this point for the devs to change the entire research system, but maybe in a future DLC?
Any thoughts?

 

[Splorghley]

This is likely to be a controversial opinion, but I honestly think the proliferation of research trees in video games, which I suppose dates back to the original Civ, is a dead end in terms of gameplay. It's never particularly fun or immersive - you just beeline for one thing or another on the tree, with the foresight to know what would happen anyway (none of us are going to fight railways for being the Devil's bullets), and the only meaningful distinction is how much you're ahead of or behind someone else.

A much more organic system could be a very small amount of scientist pops in your biggest cities, slowly generating scientific advance, which you could perhaps encourage with funding and more permissive social laws (to simulate the effect of free speech on scientific enquiry, etc.). Significant advances generate a pop-up, as with the current system. Pop ups for lesser advances could perhaps be togglable in the message settings.

Imagine the role-playing possibilities of a system like this: a long war, or sustained oppression, could cause your precious scientists to emigrate or demote to other pops, for example. Economic and cultural ties with the outside world could lead to more contact among scientists, and faster spread of innovations; whereas closed borders stifle it. A small liberal country could go all in on attracting top-tier scientists to punch above their weight on economic and industrial output, whereas a sprawling autocratic behemoth is going to struggle, as more permissive social laws would risk unleashing forces they can't contain (e.g. Austria, Russia).

 

[Sbrubbles]

Good old alpha centauri did it right with random technologies research

 

[dwarf40]

This is likely to be a controversial opinion, but I honestly think the proliferation of research trees in video games, which I suppose dates back to the original Civ, is a dead end in terms of gameplay. It's never particularly fun or immersive - you just beeline for one thing or another on the tree, with the foresight to know what would happen anyway (none of us are going to fight railways for being the Devil's bullets), and the only meaningful distinction is how much you're ahead of or behind someone else.

A much more organic system could be a very small amount of scientist pops in your biggest cities, slowly generating scientific advance, which you could perhaps encourage with funding and more permissive social laws (to simulate the effect of free speech on scientific enquiry, etc.). Significant advances generate a pop-up, as with the current system. Pop ups for lesser advances could perhaps be togglable in the message settings.

Imagine the role-playing possibilities of a system like this: a long war, or sustained oppression, could cause your precious scientists to emigrate or demote to other pops, for example. Economic and cultural ties with the outside world could lead to more contact among scientists, and faster spread of innovations; whereas closed borders stifle it, etc.

I agree with the research trees thing, but most advances at the time were not done by scientists. Like I said, technology tends to be improved by the people using it, which is why I suggested my pop-specific RP idea.
Not to say that scientists were completely useless. Their abstract research should unlock other pops' advances.

Good old alpha centauri did it right with random technologies research

How did that work?

 

[Sbrubbles]

How did that work?

To be fair, it wasn't anything special. There was a tech tree in the background, but you had to choose which category (out of 4) your scientists went in, then you would get a random tech in that category. This was the default mode, but you could set this off in game creation and have a regular tech tree

 

[SemirDahak]

Also, it's a horrible news that they gave up on separation of scientific discoveries and technological inventions. Merging these is one of the gravest mistakes of strategy games. I hope so much they change their minds or at least I hope it'll be a DLC feature

 

[Juanvito]

This is likely to be a controversial opinion, but I honestly think the proliferation of research trees in video games, which I suppose dates back to the original Civ, is a dead end in terms of gameplay. It's never particularly fun or immersive - you just beeline for one thing or another on the tree, with the foresight to know what would happen anyway (none of us are going to fight railways for being the Devil's bullets), and the only meaningful distinction is how much you're ahead of or behind someone else.

A much more organic system could be a very small amount of scientist pops in your biggest cities, slowly generating scientific advance, which you could perhaps encourage with funding and more permissive social laws (to simulate the effect of free speech on scientific enquiry, etc.). Significant advances generate a pop-up, as with the current system. Pop ups for lesser advances could perhaps be togglable in the message settings.

Imagine the role-playing possibilities of a system like this: a long war, or sustained oppression, could cause your precious scientists to emigrate or demote to other pops, for example. Economic and cultural ties with the outside world could lead to more contact among scientists, and faster spread of innovations; whereas closed borders stifle it. A small liberal country could go all in on attracting top-tier scientists to punch above their weight on economic and industrial output, whereas a sprawling autocratic behemoth is going to struggle, as more permissive social laws would risk unleashing forces they can't contain (e.g. Austria, Russia).

Add schools of research (which can be player controlled) and this would be amazing.

 

[alexti]

I'm not sure if the devs said anything about research yet, but I would like to give my two cents.
Realistically speaking, most research was done outside of government control. Do you really think some government bureaucrat walked inside the universities and told the professors there what theories to study and what art style to use? Especially when nobody at the time has any idea which ideas would become successful or not.
And is universities really the best way to simulate the research process? During this time frame, universities were not the main source of technological advances. New steam engines were made by engineers and new art styles were made by artists. Universities should stick to education and abstract research. I imagine a system where every pop produces pop-specific research points that goes into advances in their field.
That's not to say that the player should be powerless. They should be able to give prizes that will encourage the pops to make a better mousetrap or something. and they should be able to choose which art school to shower with government patronage (of course, Impressionism was made in spite of official support, not because of it). And we should be able to fund military research.
Obviously, it too late at this point for the devs to change the entire research system, but maybe in a future DLC?
Any thoughts?

I like this idea in general, but not necessarily in the same form and I think doing it as DLC would be a bad idea - the research system is too important to have 2 versions (with DLC vs without DLC).

Research in that time period is an interesting subject. Applied research was mostly done privately and often by individual inventors or the small organizations. This also meant that the new inventions were coming up from the people already working in the industry, which means that the nations that have no railroads shouldn't be able to research advanced railroad technologies.

The line between private and government research was kind of blurred. Consider Bell Labs, for example, the government has allowed Western Electric and AT&T to maintain monopoly on the communication network with the agreement that they finance their research arm (Bell Labs) and allow government to tap into this research capacity to develop military technologies, for example.

It seems that the government should be able to influence direction of the research to a significant degree, but it would be limited what areas of research would be available depending on the existing research pool (probably tied to the industries that exist in the nation).

 

[MadHopper]

If I could design a system from the ground up, there’d be different schools of research that advance individually based on literacy and industrial advancement. But you could invest in specific sectors or perhaps build universities centered around a specific topic. Most nations would of course be focused on Military innovations, but if you decided to take a risk and go all in on, say, Transportation, you might have a more efficient railway system than everyone around you by the time the next war rolls around...or your investments might not pay off and your armies all get blown up because they have outdated weapons.

 

[durbal]

I realize OP is trying to be funny, but the idea that governments weren't involved in research is very off base. 2/10.

I do think research trees tend to be boring in most games, though.

 

[alanschu]

Add schools of research (which can be player controlled) and this would be amazing.

This is kinda reminding me how old Master of Orion games used to do their research. Funding split into different fields. Those progressions were linear and mostly predictable (a chance that you'd skip a technology could happen).

This thread was a pleasant surprise. Figured it was coming sassing particular posters but I think there are some neat ideas here. Not sure what the current research plans are like. I have a feeling they aren't this way, but that's just a feeling. Something like this would be interesting. I am a bit disappointed at the separation of inventions and theory being removed... I hope there's still some level of randomness to the discovery.

I don't mind the idea of research dependencies that a research tree provides, but it's something I liked about the Stellaris system. Although even it was a bit weird (I'd have preferred to not go pure random every time, but add a new idea to the existing list of previously, untaken choices.

 

[dwarf40]

I realize OP is trying to be funny, but the idea that governments weren't involved in research is very off base. 2/10.

I do think research trees tend to be boring in most games, though.

What are you talking about? I'm not saying that governments weren't involved in research, I'm saying that they didn't direct or plan it. Or are you going to tell me that there are governments that create 5-year research plans? Not even the Soviets did that. Research, by definition, is impossible to plan for.
Look carefully into the Vicy2 tech screen. Tell me, was Romanticism researched by the government? What about high & low pressure steam engines? Point to the government directive that produced positivism. Governments certainly encouraged or discouraged innovation, yes, but no planning was ever done. The only exception was military research, where governments often pick which project to fund, but that is a very small and narrow part of the technological world.

Edit: I will cop to the funny thing, tho.

 

[Heatth]

This is likely to be a controversial opinion, but I honestly think the proliferation of research trees in video games, which I suppose dates back to the original Civ, is a dead end in terms of gameplay. It's never particularly fun or immersive - you just beeline for one thing or another on the tree, with the foresight to know what would happen anyway (none of us are going to fight railways for being the Devil's bullets), and the only meaningful distinction is how much you're ahead of or behind someone else.

I agree. I particularly like the Stallaris system, in which technology is represented by cards in a deck. Each time you need to decide what to research next you draw three random cards (well, random with weights and prerequisites) and chose one to pursuit. After you finish you draw more three. It is still not a "realistic" system, but if doesn't feel as rigid as the traditional tech tree while still giving the player some control and ways to interact.

A much more organic system could be a very small amount of scientist pops in your biggest cities, slowly generating scientific advance, which you could perhaps encourage with funding and more permissive social laws (to simulate the effect of free speech on scientific enquiry, etc.). Significant advances generate a pop-up, as with the current system. Pop ups for lesser advances could perhaps be togglable in the message settings.

I am pretty sure this is more or less the system they re using. Like, we don't know the exact balance and all of that, but universities (and, therefore, the pops who work in it) produces science and certain social laws helps with technology spreads.

 

[EUnderhill]

If the spirit of the nation wants to be all in on Impressionism or Ideological Thought, so be it.

 

[Qwerlancer]

A better solution is player have direct control of research plans in military techs and business regulations, with uncontrollable civil techs development as prerequisite/research time reduction for them.

 

[wilcoxchar]

Also, it's a horrible news that they gave up on separation of scientific discoveries and technological inventions. Merging these is one of the gravest mistakes of strategy games. I hope so much they change their minds or at least I hope it'll be a DLC feature

The way these forums talk, everything Paradox does is the greatest mistake in strategy games. And yet their games are usually fine and somehow continue to sell well and make money.

 

[Sarmatian]

The way these forums talk, everything Paradox does is the greatest mistake in strategy games. And yet their games are usually fine and somehow continue to sell well and make money.

Oh, please... Popularity doesn't equate quality.

Not to mention that "sell well" or "make money" is really very vague. "Sell well" compared to what? Europa Universalis 1 or Minecraft or Star Wars Battlefront? Make how much money? 1$ or 100,000$ or a 100,000,000$?

Unless you have even a slighly reasoned line of though where you can explain, with a modicum of sense, that Vic 3 will sell much better based on a particular feature, that's a non argument. Vic 2 sold well and in it players couldn't control capitalists' money.

 

[Bradley Hutson]

I think it really depends on what the research in question is. If you're talking about electric light bulbs and radios, then there probably wasn't historically that much direct government involvement, apart from patents and the like. However, pretty much anything related to the military had lots of government involvement, with many military technologies eventually finding civilian applications.

There should probably be different categories for technology and ideas, with each category having a different amount of government involvement. There should even be ideas that spawn against the wishes of a government, like communism and civil disobedience.

 

[alanschu]

Vic 2 sold well and in it players couldn't control capitalists' money.

Sold well compared to what though?

 

[Sarmatian]

Sold well compared to what though?

Precisely my point. It's a non argument. You can say that for any game that turned a profit.