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unmerged(49082)

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Looking through the information about research concepts I saw that there is no summary for different concepts together with exact formulas. As a few things were still unclear to me I decided to make such a summary myself. Although I made testing alone I partly based on existing info so a credit here for the whole community.



The research in Victoria

Research is conducted by your national culture pops but you can guide it. There are five fields of science: army, navy, commerce, culture and industry. Each field is divided into five subfields with five technologies in each. There are 125 technologies in total. Most countries start with at least few techs already researched but the system doesn't allow to research all remaining ones alone as the timespan of the game is only 85 years and basicly you cannot research more than one tech each year. You can trade techs however. Most of the techs can be researched right from the beginning if all it's prequisites are met. But there are some in military branch that can be chosen only after a certain date. Also techs of the fourth and fifth circle in each field are available from 1879 and 1898 respectively, but some techs can have this dates different.

As a general rule techs have some inventions associated with them. Inventions will trigger randomly if all conditions are met. Due to their nature it may be hard to plan your developement. Every invention has two dates: one that unlocks it and one that makes it very possible, usually ten years after the first one. For the complete list of all techs and inventions go to the Victorian Techtionary. It is still not updated for 1.04 though. Prestige is the main factor deciding how fast you can trigger inventions. I don't know if it's relative to other countries or is high prestige alone enough but it is definintely an issue. When you are at negative prestige inventions may be queued for years but when you get a big prestige boost (by cheating or otherwise) you may get quite a few inventions in a period of a week or a month.

Which fields are the most important? There is no simple answer. Everything depends on your playing style. But if you are planning to invest hard in military while forgoing "peace" techs you are going to make a big mistake. Unless you are planning massive warring all the time army techs give no big enough benefits to justify condensing all efforts there. Also new ship types are expensive so to support a constant warfare you need a strong economy. And that is where the other fields are useful. Commerce techs should solve most of your problems with money. Culture techs are extremely important both to put you high in bidding chain (prestige is important) and due to meaningful choices to be made. This field should be considered to take early, all the more that you cannot trade culture techs. Industry techs and inventions develope your nation even further if you devote yourself in industrialization, they improve the effectiveness of your factories thus making your economy stronger.

There are a few academy types that decide what techs can be chosen at a given time. The most balanced is traditional academic circle. It allows you to pick one tech from every field. Once you make a choice and finish researching usually techs from the next subfield in each field are presented. So if you don't research a tech you wanted you have to wait a full cycle to do so. The other academic circles are concentrated in one field so you can use them to catch up in research in the given field. Changing your academic circle costs 10 prestige and puts a new one randomly. Propably if you start with traditional academic you should stay with it.



Research Points

RP, or Research Point, is a representation of you nation's effort in research. Each tech basicly costs 10RP to research and takes 360 days (one year) to do so. Techs of the fourth circle cost 12.5RP and take 390 days (one year and one month) to research. Techs of the fifth circle cost 15RP and take 450 days (1.25 year) to reseach. If you have order or liberty national values you get techs for 90% cost in both RP and time for army and navy or commerce, culture and industry fields respectively. If you trade you pay the full RP price but get the tech already researched. If some other country trades a tech to you you get it for free (no RP, the only cost is what you pay for it in the trade deal proposed). So liberty gives a substancial bonus to research but it may be hard to get it cheaply without cheating if you don't start with it.

So how fast are RPs generated? Here is the formula for monthly RP gain:
Code:
<RP gain> = <base RP gain> * (0.5 + <literacy>/2) * <education spending> * <civilized modifier> * <education modifier>
<civilized modifier> is 1 for civilized nations and 0.1 for uncivilized ones

<education modifier> starts at 1 and two techs: Positivism (4202) and Functionalism (4203) give a bonus of 0.1 each after they are researched. Thus the education_modifier, as it is named in the savefile, can range from 1 to 1.2.


If you want to squeeze the maximum out of your researchers you need to fund education at 100%. This increases research in the short-run as well as in the long-run (overfunding education increases literacy).

If you are unsatisfied with your research at max funding and current literacy rate you need to promote some of your pops to different ones, better suited for research. The formula for base RP gain is:
Code:
<base RP gain> = (sum of <pop type size> * <pop type modifier>) / <total size of national pops> * 0.75
or if you want:
Code:
<base RP gain> = (sum of <%pop type> * <pop type modifier>) * 0.75
<%pop type> is a percentage of national culture pop type population in total national culture population.
Note that pop size is something different than population. Population = total pops size * 4.

<pop type modifier> is as follows:
0 - slaves
1 - farmers, labourers, soldiers, craftsmen
2 - aristocrats
3 - capitalists, officers, clergy after Darwinism
4 - clerks and clergy before Darwinism
5 - clerks after Darwinism

With those two techs researched and a nation full of clerks it's possible to have 3.6RP a month and after Darwinism 4.5RP a month. In normal conditions it should be doable to exceed 1RP a month by promoting big national pops to clerks and small nationals and/or minorities to craftsmen. Clergy is useful for underindustrialized nations (they don't work so there is no need to have factory slots to avoid migration/emigration) and government types that suffer from high plurality like absolute monarchies (due to consciousness reducing effect) but after Darwinism they are less useful. Slaves, if you happen to have any national culture ones, are terrible for research. Should be gotten rid of ASAP, abolishing slavery is best of course.

If your population consists of farmers only you get 0.75RP a month at max literacy and max spending. To keep researching one tech each year you need 0.83RP a month (0.96RP/month for techs of the fourth circle and 1RP/month for techs of the fifth circle). Everything above it can be used to trade techs or if the surplus is minimal it may be stored for the future.



Literacy

Literacy is a representation of how educated your country is. It's affected only by education spending so colonizing a 10 milion african colony as a 1 milion country doesn't decrease your literacy rate. The formula for monthly literacy increase/loss is:
Code:
<literacy change> = <maximum literacy increase/loss> * <%over-/underfunding>
<maximum literacy increase> a month is (0.125 - <literacy>/10)%

<maximum literacy loss> a month is 0.0375%


At 50% education spending there is neither over- nor underfunding. At 100% spending there is 100% overfunding and at 0% spending there is 100% underfunding.

As you can see if you cannot affors full spending all the time it may be profitable to fund education at 100% one month and 0% at the second one alternately instead of funding 50% on both months, because RP gain will be the same, costs will be the same but the literacy will increase instead of staying the same. This is true only for literacy levels below 87.5%. Literacy loss can be easily restored, esp. at low literacy levels. It's not wise to skimp on education though as in 1.04 literacy gain rate is half of what it used to be before so it will take longer to make up for the lost time. You should consider going into debt if you cannot fund education for a short period.

Literacy also affects efficiency of factory workers. For craftsmen it's 0.5 + <literacy>/2 and for clerks it's 1 + <literacy>/2. In 1.04 literacy affects also efficiency of RGO workers as follows: 0.5 + <literacy>/2.




Education costs

Researching techs costs money. Although RPs come only from national population the money for education is paid for the whole population. The formula for education costs is:
Code:
<maximum education spendings> = sum of <pop type modifier> * <relative pop size> * <colony modifier> * <account efficiency>
The <pop type modifier> is taken from db\economy\pops.txt and is:
7.5 for capitalists
4.0 for aristocrats
2.5 for officers
4.5 for clerks
2.0 for clergy
2.5 for craftsmen
0.7 for soldiers
0.6 for farmers and labourers

0.0 for slaves

<relative pop size> = <pop size> / 100000

<colony modifier> is 1 for pops in states and 0.25 for pops in colonies

<account efficiency> is taken from the savefile account_eff for education. It varies at the start of the GC between countries and can change through researching techs and/or triggering inventions.


So which pop types are the most cost-efficient in terms of research?
Code:
[COLOR=DeepSkyBlue][U]pop type                research/costs[/U][/COLOR]
capitalists                   0.4
aristocrats                   0.5
officers                      1.2
pre-Darwinism clerks          0.89   
post-Darwinism clerks         1.11
pre-Darwinism clergy           2
post-Darwinism clergy         1.5
craftsmen                     0.4
farmers, labourers            1.67
soldiers                      1.43
slaves don't conribute to research but don't cost either
Craftsmen are expensive to educate and don't pay back properly in RPs. So you should really keep the amount of clerk population higher than craftsmen population. You are limited to 2:3 per factory level ratio or 1:1 if you overexpand but try to put the maximum of your population in clerk pops. Capitalist pops aren't great too but they at least provide factory efficiency bonus that compensates high education costs. High cost-efficiency of educating clergy, esp. before Darwinism invention, is the only point at which clergy is better than clerks in researching, which makes clergy good for poor countries that cannot afford industry anyway but don't want to lag in research.
 
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Thanks for the good information.

One area you didn't cover, which I have wondered about, is losing prestige during trades. I have noticed that in certain trades, I will lose prestige. As long as I trade one tech for one tech, I "usually" don't lose prestige. I "think" you only lose prestige in multi-tech trades and refused trades. Although I am not certain on this point.

Also any successful tech trade with another country, favorably increases your diplomatic relationship. If you plan a long term alliance with another country, it is very useful to trade techs with them. Trading techs makes both countries stronger and keeps the diplomatic relationship high without the need to use the "improve relationship" diplomatic point. You do need to prepare your relationship with your trading partners. I usually won't attempt a trade until I have a relationship of at least 120.

As Austria, I find trading with Bavaria very useful. They are not a military threat, usually an ally and they research techs well. I am willing to trade any techs with Bavaria. I also trade with England. I usually will not trade them naval or army techs as I may fight them one day. If I want a strong Prussia, I will trade them my top army techs with immediate benefits to strengthen their military against France or Russia. Just bare in mind beyond your benefit in the trade, what impact your trade will have on your trading partner. Sometimes it is good to trade railroads to a country about 5 years before you invade/annex them. Let them spend the money improving the railroad system for you. Although I do wonder if those countries then turn around and trade my top cutting edge techs to my enemies???

Higher level techs are more valuable to trade than lower level techs. When you have a research point surplus, it is better to research those higher level techs and then trade for the lower level techs. You can trade that one high level tech for three lower level techs by making three separate trades to three different allies. You need the research point surplus though...

Last, you can't trade for culture techs. You have to research those on your own and they are extremely valuable. In my latest game, culture tech inventions have provided 1500 of my current 2900 prestige points. I am currently ranked number two but expect number one by the end of the game-without fighting the UK.

One of my biggest newbie discoveries was ensuring my largest state pops filled clerk slots in factories. I replace those tiny starting game clerk pops with the largest pops available ASAP.....Big difference in literacy and research points.

Again, very good information. Research is a dominant factor in the game.
 
Last edited:

unmerged(49082)

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This post was supposed to cover research matters only. The info you are talking about can be found elsewhere but for your convinience: if you trade tech for money you lose 10 prestige. If you trade tech for tech you don't lose prestige. It was done to prevent the tech selling for cash abuse. Every trade increases relations by 15. You won't get a favourable deal at low relationship and high BB.

EDIT: Added the info that you cannot trade culture techs. Thanks for the remark.

Trading railroad techs to a country you are planning to invade soon is something I didn't think about before but it can be considered a slight abuse. Again thanks for the tip.

Trading techs to uncertain or temporary allies is risky, but if you don't overdo it and don't give them military and most advanced techs it is ok.
 

Fawr

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Code:
<base RP gain> = (sum of <pop type size> * <pop type modifier>) / <total size of national pops> * 0.9
or if you want:
Code:
<base RP gain> = (sum of <%pop type> * <pop type modifier>) * 0.9

I'm not so sure about your 0.9 constant. Its not the same as what I got when I did this before (here). If I convert my formula to your one then I get a constant of 0.75.

I just checked by loading up a new game as Montenegro. They have 100% farmers, and 10% literacy and with 50% funding produce 0.21RP, or at 100% funding produce 0.41RP.

Your formula says (base_RP * 0.55 * 0.5), which would indicate that base_RP is 0.74545... and since all the pops are farmers the constant must be about 0.75 instead of 0.9.

Otherwise everything you have said matches up with my numbers, except that its much clearer when I read what you wrote compared to how I wrote it up...
 

unmerged(49082)

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Sorry for long not replying Fawr but I missed your post somehow. I made my testing using GC Uruguay. And all tests obviously revealed 0.9 constant. The variance between your formula and the results I was getting in all my games was the main reason that made me do some testing myself. The Montenegro data you present would indeed indicate a 0.75 constant but there is no factor in .inc files that could affect research neither in Montenegro nor in countries I play. Waiting for confirmation of either value from the community. That might solve the problem we have here.

EDIT: I have updated the thread for 1.04. The changes concern new Darwinism invention effects, halved literacy gain rate and the new db\economy\pops.txt values. If you know of any other changes I didn't include let me know.
 

unmerged(29814)

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AFIK the constant is 0.75. Walen has probably made his test after researching positivism and functionalism. They increase the constaht by 10% each, 0.75 * 120%=0.9.

I have also seen that literacy in patch 1.4 increases RGO workers efficiency by 1+literacy%.
Is anyone willing to test and confirm this? It is easy to test by editing literacy of 1-province coutrties and comparing results at different literacy levels.
 

jdrou

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Politruk said:
AFIK the constant is 0.75. Walen has probably made his test after researching positivism and functionalism. They increase the constaht by 10% each, 0.75 * 120%=0.9.

I have also seen that literacy in patch 1.4 increases RGO workers efficiency by 1+literacy%.
Is anyone willing to test and confirm this? It is easy to test by editing literacy of 1-province coutrties and comparing results at different literacy levels.
I also got 0.75 for the constant in my testing with three different nations in 1836 (so no positivism or functionalism). So the actual formula would be
<base RP gain> = education_modifier * (sum of <%pop type> * <pop type modifier>) * 0.75

Education costs:
I believe the actual formula is not:
Code:
<maximum education spending> = sum of <pop type modifier> * <relative pop size> * 1.2
but
Code:
<maximum education spending> = sum of [ pop_size/100000 * ( literacy modifier from pops.txt ) * account_eff { education } * ( 0.25 if in a colony ) ]
where account_eff {education} is the modifier added by techs which increase education costs
Code:
command = { type = account_eff which = education value = x }
 
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Politruk said:
AFIK the constant is 0.75. Walen has probably made his test after researching positivism and functionalism. They increase the constaht by 10% each, 0.75 * 120%=0.9.
>> Positivism (ID: 4202) and Functionalism (ID: 4203)
>> Effects: Change education_modifier by 10
I always thought that it actually decreases education costs but this is just an unconfirmed suspicion. The tests I ran were at the start of the GC and always before I researched those techs in my games. I even checked again and there are no 42xx techs discovered in the test savefile that I kept. The info I present is by no means complete so feel free to fill the gaps.

EDIT: Added the info about education costs in colonies (thanks to jdrou)

I need to run some more tests now in 1.04 to examine other things discussed here.
 

unmerged(49082)

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A quick test regarding RGO workers efficiency reveals that literacy rate does influence the output. The sample data:

at 100% literacy
1*50k size pop in a 50% (2.5) efficiency cattle province provides 2.4 output. x*12*0.5=2.4
1*50k size pop in a 100% (5) efficiency sheep province provides 6.4 output. y*16*1=6.4

In the same conditions but 0% literacy
Cattle output 1.2 (the additional 0.01 has been rounded due to that the game immediately rounds literacy from 0% to 1%, possibly because literacy gain is daily)
Sheep output 6.4 (0.06 has been rounded for easy calculations as above)

There is still some magic in the formula as usual (there is a separate guide that covers the matter here) because the base for cattle is x=0.1 and the base for sheep is y=0.4. I'd suggest that the formula for RGO workers is just like for craftsmen: 0.5 + literacy/2.

EDIT: Updated the guide with the info

Jdrou, your formula for education costs is propably correct in 1.04. I have run a small test with 1.04 GC 1836 Uruguay.
6 pops 50k size each. The formula gives: 6 * 0.5 * 0.6 * something = 1.8*something. The cost shown at max education spendings is 1.9 and the account_eff for education in the savefile is 1.065.
1.8 * 1.065 = 1.917 so the game will display 1.9 after rounding.
This is a difference from what used to be, because the account_eff for education was 1 and the modifier was 1.2.

EDIT: Made an update for the formula
 
Last edited:

unmerged(29814)

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Walen, you should have used 5 50k POPs because 1 POP only produces 1/5 of full level.

The formula I have used is:

2.5*production efficiency*resource efficiency*resource value*(1+literacy)/5.

So 1 50k POP would produce at 100% literacy: (2.5*40%*16*1*2)/5=6.4 units wool, 5 POPs would produce 32 units.

Sorry for my incomplete post.
 
Last edited:

jdrou

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For the math-minded, here is the formula for literacy after n months at 100% education spending where L0 is literacy at start (range from 0-100):

L = 125-(125-L0)(0.999)^n

number of months at 100% education spending to achieve literacy L:

n = log[(125-L)/(125-L0)]/log[0.999]
 

Fawr

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I did a couple of samples with 100% farmer countries to confirm the constant

funding 100%
literacy 10%
pops = 100% farmers

plugging these into the formula's.

Code:
<base RP gain> = (sum of <%pop type> * <pop type modifier>) * 0.9
<base RP gain> = (100%*1.0) * 0.9 = 0.9

Code:
<RP gain> = <base RP gain> * (0.5 + <literacy>/2) * <education spending> * <civilized modifier>
<RP gain> = 0.9 * (0.5 + 0.1/2) * 100% * 1
<RP gain> = 0.9 * 0.55
<RP gain> = 0.495
But the RP gain isn't 0.495 its 0.41

Can you see a flaw in these calculations or do you get different stating RPs for countries like this?
 

unmerged(49082)

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In fact I do get 0.75 modifier now in 1.04 with many countries but I haven't updated the first post yet. Now I am trying to find how did I get the 0.9 number in 1.03c.
 

unmerged(49082)

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EDIT: added info about different start dates for some high level techs and about prestige influence on inventions.
I finally corrected the infelicitious constant. As you point out the constant is not 0.9 but 0.75 and two techs increase the education_modifier to 1.2. It is easy to see that 1.2*0.75 = 0.9. I must have had an oversight slipped in when I was running the tests. Mea culpa. Corrected.
Added the info about required RP generation rate for higher level techs.
 

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Walen said:
>> Positivism (ID: 4202) and Functionalism (ID: 4203)
>> Effects: Change education_modifier by 10
I always thought that it actually decreases education costs but this is just an unconfirmed suspicion. The tests I ran were at the start of the GC and always before I researched those techs in my games. I even checked again and there are no 42xx techs discovered in the test savefile that I kept. The info I present is by no means complete so feel free to fill the gaps.

EDIT: Added the info about education costs in colonies (thanks to jdrou)

I need to run some more tests now in 1.04 to examine other things discussed here.


I have confirmed that account_eff is a multiplier for cost. Therefore, a account_eff larger than 1.000 increases the cost and lower values lower the cost.
 

unmerged(49082)

Field Crown Hetman
Oct 2, 2005
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clamp2004 said:
have any of this stuff changed in revolutions?
To be onest I have no idea (look at my sig to know why). I don't think this was mentioned in the changelog so probably it wasn't altered.
 

OHgamer

Victoria's Plastic Surgeon
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There have been no changes to the calculation of literacy AFAIK in 1.4 or Revolutions from earlier versions.
 

unmerged(51214)

Captain
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Are you going to post this on the vikki wiki? (I would wholeheartedly suggest it =) )