Research Rate Problems and Discussion

[unmerged(12709)]

but no one here is keeping in mind what i said about upgrading the large empires.. but eh, it seems that it doesn't matter since 1.1 changed that.


either way, i don't see it as such a huge issue. I managed to get all my NIs from playing a normal game, yeah, it was a little bit slower (I was off by 5 years on most of them), but... I feel like people are seriously playing this game wrong.

Its not a game like RTW, or about the medieval era.

 

[unmerged(94472)]

I think you're right about people playing the game "wrong", and I blame Paradox for not making the "right" way to play clearer. Hand an open-ended empire-building grand-strategy game with no clear-cut path to victory to a would-be grognard, and his or her first instinct will be to expand as quickly as possible.

That is not intended as a criticism of Paradox or the game, which I still feel is a fine product, but a comment on the lack of communication.

 

[Vladislav]

I'd like to know how you played, Renown. I ran a quick test game as Macedonia, and after conquering all of the research-rich provinces of Greece (and nothing else, save for one colony), I still wouldn't reach my first tech levels until 500-507, even with one event that invested 500 RP into one field.

Your anecdote is nothing but an exception... an exception that proves the rule. Let's see if you think it's "not such a huge issue" when you play as Rome and can't build a single road by the end of the game.

EDIT: Also, how are people playing the game "wrong" by behaving as Rome historically did? The whole point of the game is to play Rome (or another major power) and conquer half of the known world, and if that's the "wrong" way to play, then what we have here is a "paradox."

 

[unmerged(94472)]

Vladislav -

Yeah, I'm playing as Macedonia as well, except I went for Illyria instead of the Greek states, and I also didn't start hitting Lev. 1 until about 510.

 

[unmerged(12709)]

as i said, there are more factors here. Theres a lot, I have to agree, that Paradox has not explained too well, that said, I didn't play the tutorial so i dont know if it is there.

Your governors play a HUGE ROLE in civilizing. Your tech researchers also play a large role, based on their attributes. Yes, the most important one is finesse, but other characteristics can IMPEND or SPEED up your research.

I get multiple events firing off within 20-30 years adding research to my overall required RP per level. I get 500 research in almost all the areas. The best way to acheive your higher research is, heh, don't expand. Or was with 1.0, I haven't played a full game with 1.1 yet. Which apparently should be even EASIER.

every characteristic and trait is important in some regard. Find out what those traits are, and hell, even check the triggers or events to see what traits you want to increase your research.

THAT said, I believe the buildings/attributes attached to the tech levels themselves are slightly odd. They may have historical basis, there I'm unsure, I didn't go through them and try and match them up.

I didn't say it was perfect, I just said it worked for me. Though I also did increase the tech modifier like most of you guys did, primarily because I don't really play this game for realism, but I don't complain. I fix the issue myself. Anyone who plays this game should learn basic elementary text editing. A lot of factors in this game are editable, and they can make for interesting happenings. For example, I increased the spread of civ from trade. That led to Atrebates trading with Rome!!! That caused them to expand to their nearby states, eventually becoming the most powerful nation in northern europe. (As I rule, I try not to conquer small nations *exceptions being on Italy, and Illyria), I take on the big guys.)


(Also referencing text editing doesn't mean someone can go "Just because you can fix it yourself, doesn't mean its okay, or that paradox shouldn't fix it." because, again, I think it does tend to lend to a more historically driven game. Think like you are back there, take into considerations - you were just conquered, and you have a high revolt risk, different religion and culture... who would you want being your governor? The guy who is an excellent administrator, and milks you for every last cent, or the guy who is a people person, and incredibly popular and easy going with the troops? You want that popular, easy going charismatic guy. He will set off events firing that will increase your civilizing rate, and or/ change culture/region/barbarian power.


Theres a suggestion, use your able administrators for roman provinces that are already acheiving. Use your people administrators for new provinces and rebellious ones.

 

[Melric]

- Researchcosts are now based on total population instead of total provinces.

If I had to guess, that is the problem there. It is probably some simple equation like Total RP / # of provinces. Now it is Total RP / # of population. So the research went off kilter and is now about 15x longer.

 

[Secret Master]

I've read somewhere that King and the other Developers are looking into this; it also sounds like you folks have some useful information to contribute on the subject.

I'm going to move this thread to the Bug Forum, and change it's title slightly to make it readily apparent what's going on.

EDIT: I found the thread where he says this.

Merged.

 

[Aytumious]

The best way to acheive your higher research is, heh, don't expand. Or was with 1.0, I haven't played a full game with 1.1 yet. Which apparently should be even EASIER.

I might be wrong, but wasn't the research problem introduced in the patch?

Regardless, the research rates are off by a mile regardless of whether people are "playing the right way." Just look at the tech levels of civilizations across the board once you are 100-200 years into the game. No matter what approach you take, research is broken (though easily fixable, it seems).

Edit:

I didn't say it was perfect, I just said it worked for me. Though I also did increase the tech modifier like most of you guys did

Actually, I noticed you did in fact edit the research rate when other people are talking about rates in unmodded games. I'm not even sure what your point is since the people talking about research rate issues didn't mod the game.

 

[marshman]

So is everyone putting their values to 2.4 from 1? Is this the consensus on the proper fix until a patch from pdox?

 

[ElNimrod]

So is everyone putting their values to 2.4 from 1? Is this the consensus on the proper fix until a patch from pdox?

I set it to 2.5
works fine for me

 

[bosnek]

How to do it with Vista

Since I am stuck with Vista as OS, how am I going to do this. I have tried to open defines.txt and change the value to 2.4 but when I try to save the changes I get a pop-up which informes me that:

Cannot create the searchway to the file where Rome is installed.

How do I fix this??

Thx in advance.

/Bosnek

 

[theshrub]

Since I am stuck with Vista as OS, how am I going to do this. I have tried to open defines.txt and change the value to 2.4 but when I try to save the changes I get a pop-up which informes me that:

Cannot create the searchway to the file where Rome is installed.

How do I fix this??

Thx in advance.

/Bosnek

The file might have the Read Only option enabled. I dont know if it's different in Vista, but in XP, right click the file, select properties, and uncheck the Read Only option.

 

[Stolpmeister]

So is everyone putting their values to 2.4 from 1? Is this the consensus on the proper fix until a patch from pdox?

That seems a little too fast for me, especially when you hit mid-to-late-game. I've always liked having a tech-advantage in my games, so I've tried the same scenario twice now - starting 474 as the Achean League with Citizenship as an Idea and and economic Idea to get that 20% research bonus, first one time unmodded and the other time with 2.4. My expansion has been pretty much identical, with some heavy colonizing northwards after a conquest for Greece. With 2.4, I seem to hit a cap around 550-560 when I'm constantly hitting new tech levels three years ahead of their time, and waiting ten years for new ones. Around 570 I noticed that all the major powers are in that same pattern - Seleucids, Egypt... even colonizing-happy ones like Rome and Carthage, without ever having used Ideas to boost research. At 575 I've come to the point were all those nations (including the Bosporan Kingdom, but they don't have alot of provinces, and the Citizenship-Idea) are never ahead of each other with more than one tech level, which they all reach within two or three years. Contrasting that is the game I played unmodded, where I could stay about five levels ahead of Rome, and two or three levels ahead of the Seleucids.

So, yeah... a bit too fast. I'm going to try something lower, like 2 or something, and see how it goes.

 

[SimuLord]

So is everyone putting their values to 2.4 from 1? Is this the consensus on the proper fix until a patch from pdox?

That, plus setting land damage to .3 to cut down on pingpong, seem to be the two major consensus fixes.

 

[SonofWinter]

engineering, yes, rome was partially advanced. but only if you consider in that they used engineering.

Rome had very little understanding of the mechanics behind how their aqueducts worked for example.

They borrowed Greek mathematics and what little mechanical theory the greeks had (Greek's were, with few exceptions, more concerned over theory, than practical uses - Archimedes is an example of the exception, nevertheless, those exceptions outproduced Rome in the mechanical engineering deptartment.

To all the Grecophiles, stow it. Yes, the Greeks had the theory and that's why they got conquered, because all they had were theories. I'm sick of hearing how the Greeks had this and the Romans stole that, the Romans made "use" of "useless" Greek inventions. They turned Greek "turds" into Roman "gold."

The Chinese had gunpowder and the printing press for hundreds of years before the Europeans. Having inventions and not having the brains to use them has been the reason why a lot of "seemingly advanced" cultures got stomped by their clever neighbors. Americans invented the airplane and the French invented the tank, so what, it was the Germans who showed them how to use these inventions in a practical manner.

The reason Roman civilization, is the GOLD STANDARD of the ancient world was their ability "not to be bigots" when it came to ideas. They had the ability to look at the value of the idea, rather than the origin of the idea. A Greek from Sparta would never think to use an Athenean's invention because of his prejudice that all Spartan ideas were worthless, which is exactly why their civilization got trampled into the dust by the "evil, thieving" Romans.

So please, stop talking about Rome like it was made up of idiots, because it wasn't, it was just an efficient society of SPECIALISTS, where everyone did not have to know how to build a road or an aqueduct, as long as there was an engineer who did, it go built and it didn't matter that the idea came from Greece or somewhere else.


As to the topic at hand: If you have modded your tech files in any way, then it means that they are not WORKING. You can't talk like everything is fine and dandy, after you went into the files and fixed them. If you had to fix them, then they were obviously, not working.

 

[Daidoji Kaneda]

The reason Roman civilization, is the GOLD STANDARD of the ancient world was their ability "not to be bigots" when it came to ideas. They had the ability to look at the value of the idea, rather than the origin of the idea. A Greek from Sparta would never think to use an Athenean's invention because of his prejudice that all Spartan ideas were worthless, which is exactly why their civilization got trampled into the dust by the "evil, thieving" Romans.

So please, stop talking about Rome like it was made up of idiots, because it wasn't, it was just an efficient society of SPECIALISTS, where everyone did not have to know how to build a road or an aqueduct, as long as there was an engineer who did, it go built and it didn't matter that the idea came from Greece or somewhere else.

Na! they are the standard because they rewrote the entire antique history..(using chinese printing press?) :rofl:

 

[Chris8b]

Off-topic (I apologize) but I find it humorous that SonofWinter implores people not to speak of Romans as idiots in the same post he does the same of Chinese and Greeks.

 

[AndrewT]

People, take your general discussion of history to the OT forums (when they open up again). This forum is purely for confirmed bug reports; as such I'm moving the discussion to the general Rome forum. Even there, keep on topic and keep it civil. Thank you.

 

[SonofWinter]

Off-topic (I apologize) but I find it humorous that SonofWinter implores people not to speak of Romans as idiots in the same post he does the same of Chinese and Greeks.

If I did that, then I have also called the Americans and the French, the same, and I'm an American. So please, don't speculate on what I've said. Either show me saying it or put your own thoughts in print, but don't try to read mine.

 

[kevster]

Since I am stuck with Vista as OS, how am I going to do this. I have tried to open defines.txt and change the value to 2.4 but when I try to save the changes I get a pop-up which informes me that:

Cannot create the searchway to the file where Rome is installed.

How do I fix this??

Thx in advance.

/Bosnek

I'm running with Vista and managed to edit the file OK - changed to 2.4 like most other people and research works fine. It gives the game a much better dynamic and increases overall interest. I'm not a techie but this seemed like a really simple thing to do