I've played till 541 AUC and my tech is at level 7. So thus far my change seems sufficient.
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Small correction, number of provinces doesn't influence research costs, size of population does. Read 1.1 patch notes. So yes, when you colonize a new province, you lose some research because of civilization value in new province, but techs don't get more expensive because you have one more province.
Research in 1.1 version is WAY too slow. I can't be arsed to go and check 1.0 version, but in demo research was faster and it was fast enough to get techs on historical dates (as defined in txt files). It can be fixed by changing the modifier to 2.4, as it was already mentioned in both threads on this subject. I've tested 2.4 modifier for around 60 years of gameplay and so far everything is working as it should.
Research in 1.1 version is WAY too slow. I can't be arsed to go and check 1.0 version, but in demo research was faster and it was fast enough to get techs on historical dates (as defined in txt files). It can be fixed by changing the modifier to 2.4, as it was already mentioned in both threads on this subject. I've tested 2.4 modifier for around 60 years of gameplay and so far everything is working as it should.
Strategy guide is partially outdated 
. You have to take into account the changes brought by first patch, if you want to write some sort of analysis of research system. Otherwise you're just spreading false information.
. You have to take into account the changes brought by first patch, if you want to write some sort of analysis of research system. Otherwise you're just spreading false information.
I can't help but put my two cents in, and not on the topic of how slow teching up is (which I think is WAY too slow).
Rome was technologically backwards? From public finance to engineering, they were by far (in general, some civilizations had a specific invention, or area of excellence, but as a whole), significantly more advanced then anything seen before or for a long time, after. Cement: used by the romans, lost to the world until post-renaissance. Public finance and a well run census/taxation/voting system...only the romans, again not seen on such a level again till post renaissance. Indoor plumbing and heating: in use for a majority of romans, did not become available to the majority of a population again until industrial revolution England. Personal hygiene: until recently, only americans used as much water per day as an ancient roman on cleaning themselves, etc. etc.
So when the Romans or Carthaginians in the game fall well behind other groups, for example, because they are bigger, it loses all sense of historical significance. The reason empires became empires is because the people lived longer, had more time and resources to devote to thought rather than subsistemce, could effectively tax and keep track of the population, etc.
Anyway, I'm going to throw the 2.4 modification in and wait for a patch...on the other hand I don't think the Suebi should live in caves for 400 years either, thats ridiculous on the other end of the spectrum.
Rome was technologically backwards? From public finance to engineering, they were by far (in general, some civilizations had a specific invention, or area of excellence, but as a whole), significantly more advanced then anything seen before or for a long time, after. Cement: used by the romans, lost to the world until post-renaissance. Public finance and a well run census/taxation/voting system...only the romans, again not seen on such a level again till post renaissance. Indoor plumbing and heating: in use for a majority of romans, did not become available to the majority of a population again until industrial revolution England. Personal hygiene: until recently, only americans used as much water per day as an ancient roman on cleaning themselves, etc. etc.
So when the Romans or Carthaginians in the game fall well behind other groups, for example, because they are bigger, it loses all sense of historical significance. The reason empires became empires is because the people lived longer, had more time and resources to devote to thought rather than subsistemce, could effectively tax and keep track of the population, etc.
Anyway, I'm going to throw the 2.4 modification in and wait for a patch...on the other hand I don't think the Suebi should live in caves for 400 years either, thats ridiculous on the other end of the spectrum.
delra said:
I'm having very good results with 3.0 RP conversion. 50 years in the game, things like Greek minors had already reached 6, Rome was only bit behind and my Armenia with now near 40% citizens is at 5-4. Mind you, I have a lot of barbarian provinces aside those rich greek Pontic colonies so that slowed me down a tad.
engineering, yes, rome was partially advanced. but only if you consider in that they used engineering.
Rome had very little understanding of the mechanics behind how their aqueducts worked for example.
They borrowed Greek mathematics and what little mechanical theory the greeks had (Greek's were, with few exceptions, more concerned over theory, than practical uses - Archimedes is an example of the exception, nevertheless, those exceptions outproduced Rome in the mechanical engineering deptartment.
Look up hero of alexandria, or any of the heads of the library of alexandria, or archimedes if you dont know him.
Rome had practical usage, they borrowed elements of greek, egyptian, and yes, persian cultures and governments. They invented very little themselves.
Their public finance, they borrowed partially from democratic athens, and ptolemaic egypt. Plus, they learned a lot from Etrucia, Samium, and other Italian city states before they conquered them.
They did not invent these things. And please don't use wikipedia as a resource, i've been studying classical rome/greece, and medieval european history for 4 years. I know all about what happened to europe at the fall of the roman empire, and the reintroduction of latin/greek works via the moslem thinkers into norman sicily.
Rome had very little understanding of the mechanics behind how their aqueducts worked for example.
They borrowed Greek mathematics and what little mechanical theory the greeks had (Greek's were, with few exceptions, more concerned over theory, than practical uses - Archimedes is an example of the exception, nevertheless, those exceptions outproduced Rome in the mechanical engineering deptartment.
Look up hero of alexandria, or any of the heads of the library of alexandria, or archimedes if you dont know him.
Rome had practical usage, they borrowed elements of greek, egyptian, and yes, persian cultures and governments. They invented very little themselves.
Their public finance, they borrowed partially from democratic athens, and ptolemaic egypt. Plus, they learned a lot from Etrucia, Samium, and other Italian city states before they conquered them.
They did not invent these things. And please don't use wikipedia as a resource, i've been studying classical rome/greece, and medieval european history for 4 years. I know all about what happened to europe at the fall of the roman empire, and the reintroduction of latin/greek works via the moslem thinkers into norman sicily.
I can settle this once and for all.
The tech levels and everything associated with them (average year of discovery, inventions) were very carefully planned by the dev team.
Players are generally expected to play the major powers, particularly Rome and certainly countries like Carthage and the Seleucids.
Therefore, we can reasonably assume that the tech levels were designed in such a way that a typical player playing as Rome or Carthage or whatever should reach higher tech levels in or around their average date of discovery. This is not currently the case, so something is clearly horribly wrong.
The tech levels and everything associated with them (average year of discovery, inventions) were very carefully planned by the dev team.
Players are generally expected to play the major powers, particularly Rome and certainly countries like Carthage and the Seleucids.
Therefore, we can reasonably assume that the tech levels were designed in such a way that a typical player playing as Rome or Carthage or whatever should reach higher tech levels in or around their average date of discovery. This is not currently the case, so something is clearly horribly wrong.
Here's what's wrong. We have here a game with no clearcut goals - completely sandbox. Also, it's balanced to that majors have a distinct advantage. That means for most people the natural inclination will be to a)play a major and b) conquer, conquer, conquer.
The problem is that up until now, no one from Paradox made it clear that conquer, conquer, conquer would further hinder tech development beyond the already slow pace.
I think that if that was clear from the beginning, people's play styles would have been slightly different, and there would be a lot less bitching.
The problem is that up until now, no one from Paradox made it clear that conquer, conquer, conquer would further hinder tech development beyond the already slow pace.
I think that if that was clear from the beginning, people's play styles would have been slightly different, and there would be a lot less bitching.
Well fair enough that if you colonise your going to be a bit behind but the big problem is everyone is like 40 years behind in research and suddenly a nation loses a civil war and boop its now the most advanced civilisation in Europe.HBernstein said:
The whole rebels getting their tech amount (or new nations as well most likely) from a history file and not from a nation or a set of nations (their tech group for example) is pretty broken. We will need to wait for a patch to (hopefully) fix this.
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Something separate on this topic: I've played about 100 years into the life of the northern Europe Celtic nation, Atrebets or something. With all the complaints I decided to try and give one of the one province European minors a chance. I'm still alive 100 years after, and have absorbed all of the other minors except Seubi but... here's the amazing part... I'm still researching Tech Level 1. -AND- this comes after me setting my research group rates from 1.0 to 1.3. Even other tribes are at 2 while I'm still working on 1.
Awesome.
Awesome.
I still can't believe it... OK, I understand that every game has some bugs when its released. But to release a game with such a major bug you can't even properly play it (as you won't see half NIs and other stuff because of the slow research rate) without modding!?!?! I mean, common PI, what were you thinking?
Too slow R&D, even though extremely annoing, is very simple to mod/adjust. I'm sure it will be sorted out in the patches/mods.
I have bigger problem with R&D system as a whole. It's extremely passive (unless someone is obsesive micromanagement freak who checks every month for chracters with marginally better finesse/traits to assign them) and doesn't feel like something player controls to any extend. I fully understand that it fits the era, but I miss CK system that would be probably better - combination of weak R&D "focus" and powerful "technology spread".
I was thinking about event chain that allows wealthy leaders invest their personal funds into technological research, with multiple choices (possibly related to his dominating statistics, like militant leader could support land/naval R&D, while finesse strong leader could support civic/infrastructure techs). Right now in game there are events that invest into certain R&D fields, but they are rare and far between.
Of course, better solution would be donation system from EU (with some sort of reasonable cooldown), but that's dev solution, while events are an option available for a modder.
I have bigger problem with R&D system as a whole. It's extremely passive (unless someone is obsesive micromanagement freak who checks every month for chracters with marginally better finesse/traits to assign them) and doesn't feel like something player controls to any extend. I fully understand that it fits the era, but I miss CK system that would be probably better - combination of weak R&D "focus" and powerful "technology spread".
I was thinking about event chain that allows wealthy leaders invest their personal funds into technological research, with multiple choices (possibly related to his dominating statistics, like militant leader could support land/naval R&D, while finesse strong leader could support civic/infrastructure techs). Right now in game there are events that invest into certain R&D fields, but they are rare and far between.
Of course, better solution would be donation system from EU (with some sort of reasonable cooldown), but that's dev solution, while events are an option available for a modder.
Renown, nice long post. Only thing that you are right... and yet so totally wrong.
The thing is, all that is written in the strategy guide is right. But still, there is something else at work here that does quite not fit into general flow of things. Colonies and expansion can ruin your progress, yes. Most true and it is usually a good idea to advance slowly. Not that colonizing happens that fast anyway.
But, as a tech advancement working/not working indicator, i'd use one-province Greek states. They usually have no colonies, have high civ rates and as high populations. Basically, they are research machines and are the most advanced factions in the Mediterranean. Look at Crete for example- after about 100 years in game, they still are at tech levels 2-3-4, depending on the situation. Now, as seen from files, the average was intended to be about 10 years between techs. Since Greek cities are more advanced, they should have hit 12-14 by then. Lagging behind in about 10 tech levels... is not normal, right!
And notice- this is Crete we're talking about, not Rome or any other major faction.
The thing is, all that is written in the strategy guide is right. But still, there is something else at work here that does quite not fit into general flow of things. Colonies and expansion can ruin your progress, yes. Most true and it is usually a good idea to advance slowly. Not that colonizing happens that fast anyway.
But, as a tech advancement working/not working indicator, i'd use one-province Greek states. They usually have no colonies, have high civ rates and as high populations. Basically, they are research machines and are the most advanced factions in the Mediterranean. Look at Crete for example- after about 100 years in game, they still are at tech levels 2-3-4, depending on the situation. Now, as seen from files, the average was intended to be about 10 years between techs. Since Greek cities are more advanced, they should have hit 12-14 by then. Lagging behind in about 10 tech levels... is not normal, right!
And notice- this is Crete we're talking about, not Rome or any other major faction.
It worked fine in the demo. If you look through the patch notes you will see they changed a few things and maybe they overlooked something in that process or just didn't have the time to test it fully.Spricar said:
The patch notes have these two lines regarding research:
- Researchcosts are now based on total population instead of total provinces.
- Civilization value now affects research points properly.
I expect in particularly the latter to have a very big effect on slowing research down. If the civilization modifier didn't work at all before they have effectively halved research output for many countries, and who knows what the effect of the change between provinces and population was?
Of course it's unfortunate that they made a mistake like that, but when it's so easy to fix, why don't we all
1. fix it,
2. stop complaining and
3. start playing some more?
Paradox will have seen the problem by now and have probably already fixed it for the next patch so there is no reason to keep writing post after post about this subject.
I feel strongly that this a game breaking bug. I tried the changing the file as suggested and it seems to work well.
But I feel strongly that Paradox should post a sticky in the general section concerning the bug to make everyone aware of the problem and the solution. They should either post a estimated patch date or endorse the above file change. I don't understand why they haven't been more vocal on this issue since it can be fixed, is not what they intended, and is such a game breaking problem.
But I feel strongly that Paradox should post a sticky in the general section concerning the bug to make everyone aware of the problem and the solution. They should either post a estimated patch date or endorse the above file change. I don't understand why they haven't been more vocal on this issue since it can be fixed, is not what they intended, and is such a game breaking problem.
Maybe they should prepare a minipatch as soon as they figure it out without waiting for the rest of fixes to come... I pity all those guys who are playing vanilla and didn't realize yet they will never see a road (unless they are Rome and already have roads).
Exactly. I played my first game as Pontus, and just assumed that tech was slow if you weren't Rome.
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