Research Intitutes are pretty bad!?

[NeedPants]

Hi everyone,

TL;DR: Research Institutes need some love. In most cases building an additional research lab provides more total research.

I'm relatively new to Stellaris so I'm trying out a ton of things and I ran into an issue with the effectiveness of Research Institutes. Searching these forums didnt yield any thread (that I could find) that adressed this.

I really enjoy making optimized builds in games like this, so I started out with some basic math on when to build an additional research lab vs a research institute, since bulding slots are the limiting factor. From a very early point onward, research institutes taper off in effectiveness and later on seem completely useless.

Research institutes are unlocked thru an 8000 Physics research, which means you will most likely attain it relatively early in the game. At this point you only have access to:
- the basic research lab with 2 jobs of 4 base research.
- the research institute with 1 job of 5 base research for most empires (for gesalt consciousness, they provide a regular 4 research job) and 15% bonus research speed for the whole planet.

So, where lies the point when a research institute would be better as the next building than an additional research lab?
At first glance: the sweetspot lies at 2 research labs. This provides 4 research jobs.
- An additional lab would increase this to 6 jobs for a total of 6 x 4 = 24 research.
- 2 labs and a research institute would provide 4 regular jobs, 1 sciende director job and 15% increased output for a total of 4 x 4 + 5 = 21 base research. With the 15% bonus output: 21 x 1.15 = 24.15 research

Much later in the game, when you have advanced research labs with 8 regular jobs of 4 research, the sweetspot lies at 6 advanced research labs, which provide 48 jobs.
- An additional lab would increase this to 56 jobs for a total of 56 x 4 = 224 research
- Institute instead: 48 x 4 + 5 = 197 base research. With bonus: 197 x 1.15 = 226.55 research

So far it looks like the research institute is fine the way it is, until I looked at how much my researchers were actually producing. Due to the nature of additive %bonusses, I realized the 15% bonus is far worse than I thought due to the vast amount of research output bonusses in the game.

By the time you get the 8000 Physics research, you likely already have the 2000 and 6000 research output from researchers +20% upgrades in each reseach field. EVERY EMPIRE early on has at least access to 52%:
- 40% research output from the tech tree
- 12% from lvl 1 governor (10% from the research skill + 2% per level)

Sweetspot lies at 4 research labs, 8 jobs:
- Additional lab: 10 jobs = 40 research. With bonus: 40 x 1.52 = 60.8 research
- Institute: 8 x 4 + 5 = 37 research. With bonus: 37 x 1.67 = 61.79 research

This is not quickly achievable in your colonies early on, only on the capital, considering this requires 5 building slots and you need additional slots for other empire needs (e.g. amenities, pop growth speed buildings etc)

Later in the game 90%:
- 60% research output from the tech tree
- 12% lvl 1 governor
- 10% lvl 1 research assist science ship
- 5% specialist output from traditions
- 3% job output from +5 stability from traditions

Sweetspot lies at 11 advanced research labs, 88 jobs:
- Additional lab: 96 jobs = 384 research. With bonus: 384 x 1.90 = 729.6 research
- Institute: 88 x 4 + 5 = 357 research. With bonus: 357 x 2.05 = 731.85 research

For regular empires this is within limits. It requires at least a planet of size 13 due to housing constraints (size 11 with mastery of nature ascension perk). Hive and machine worlds however require on average more building slots (in my experience) for things such as maintenance and to combat crime (deviancy or whatever). For them, planet size is not the constricting factor. Take hives: they get 17 building slots (traditions). 1 is the capital building, and then for 10 advanced research labs u need 4 hive warrens for maintenance and 2 sentinal posts for deviancy and the planet is full, lacking 2 additional building slots to make an institute worth it with a lvl 1 governor and lvl 1 assist researcher.

More reasonable while playing 120%:
- 60% research output from the tech tree
- 20% from a lvl 5 governor
- 20% from a lvl 6 assist researcher
- 5% specialist output from traditions
- 15% job output from 75% stability

Sweetspot lies at 13 advanced research labs, 104 jobs:
- Additional lab: 112 jobs = 448 research. With bonus: 448 x 2.20 = 985.6 research
- Institute: 104 x 4 + 5 = 421 research. With bonus: 421 x 2.35 = 989.35 research

This is possible with the right traditions for regular empires with a minimum planet size of 18 due to housing constrainsts. Include any other modifier (e.g. intelligence trait, higher stability, higher lvl governors or researchers) and you cross into the zone where only very specific builds can profit. 14 labs, 1 research institute, 1 capital building makes it impossible to add an entertainment complex. Even a size 25 planet cannot regularly afford enough housing districts to provide sufficient amenities from clerks. Its BARELY possible with mastery of nature AP for the extra districts. Some amenity reducing trait for your species could potentially work. Also heard habitats can increase amenities on other planets but I haven't had the chance to look into that yet. Still makes the institute extremely situational.

Its Stellaris, it can get crazy, 208% (ignoring the specific research type bonusses):
- 60% research from tech tree
- 30% level 10 governor
- 28% lvl 10 assist researcher
- 5% specialist output from traditions
- 30% job output from max stability
- 5% job output from robust trait
- 20% research output from erudite trait
- 10% research output from intelligent trait
- 10% output from gaia world
- 10% psionic trait
(- Traits that increase the research output of a specific research type)
(- Individual bonusses from planet modifiers +25% to a specific research type)
- I'm probably forgetting a ton more

Sweetspot lies at 18 advanced research labs, 144 jobs:
- Additional lab: 152 jobs = 608 research. With bonus: 608 x 3.08 = 1872.64 research
- Institute: 144 x 4 + 5 = 581 research. With bonus: 581 x 3.23 = 1876.63 research

If you focus on research, with the intelligence trait and the fact that governors and scientists are 99% of the time above lvl 1, its almost never worth it to build the dang institute. The only comparable building in the game is the ministry of production. Since the amount of additive %bonusses for alloys and consumer goods is much lower, that building is in a much better spot.

Unless I'm missing something obvious. Which is why I made this thread, for the wisdom of the forums. Over to you, next poster!

 

[AlanC9]

You're ignoring inputs. Gases are not free.

Unless you're planning to never upgrade the labs -- which is more viable than some people think until the midgame -- the math needs to account for the extra buildings and pops necessary to operate the advanced labs. Of course, some will come from space mining, so a definitive answer won't cover the whole empire.

The early game analysis also should be clearer that pop constraints are more important at that stage. The 4-lab sweetspot is much better than the alternative since it takes 9 pops rather than 10. I presume 4 is still the breakpoint, but you should probably check the math.

 

[Theter]

You're ignoring inputs. Gases are not free

Exactly.

Moreover you are also forgetting that you use 1 job instead of 8. This is pretty relevant mid game, whenever you get the tech. Can also help with stability (ruler vs specialists political power)

 

[Olterin]

The thing that you're missing is quite simple: the highest tier of research lab needs 1.8 (assuming prosperity is filled out) exotic gas upkeep, the research institute does not. You're also missing the part where that's 8 jobs required per lab, vs only one for the institute. I mention the exotic gas upkeep because that's essentially minerals (and an extra building slot spent somewhere on a refinery). I mention the jobs because those pops have upkeep of their own, which the institute does not. These are non-trivial dependencies.

Also, I would like to point out that your 208% is patently wrong in at least one point, as well as extremely difficult on at least one other point. These being:
-There is no way of having Erudite AND Intelligent on the same species short of finding and exploiting a game bug - these traits are mutually exclusive. (This is the patently wrong one)
-Erudite pops imply a genetically ascended empire, while Psionic ones imply a psionically ascended empire. Yes, it is technically possible to achieve having both traits, by psionically assimilating an already-erudite pop, but it is pretty damn hard and requires some luck too.
-Last I looked you can only have +50% research output from techs (at least, universally) - please enlighten me/us where the last 10% come from

With that said, you're not entirely wrong, the additive nature of the bonus can render it a bit underwhelming in the lategame.

Edit: I should add that I think it a good thing that the research institute is not an autobuild, depending on circumstances. It'd be rather boring if it were. There are circumstances when it is good, and when it is bad. This is a good thing.

 

[NeedPants]

You're ignoring inputs. Gases are not free.

Unless you're planning to never upgrade the labs -- which is more viable than some people think until the midgame -- the math needs to account for the extra buildings and pops necessary to operate the advanced labs. Of course, some will come from space mining, so a definitive answer won't cover the whole empire.

The early game analysis also should probably consider that pop constraints are more important at that stage.

Its very common to have at least 1 dedicated research planet, acquiring the gasses elsewhere. The choice for either 1 additional advanced lab or 1 institute is a difference of 1,8 gas, about 2/3 of the average production of 1 gas refinery. Most of the time that won't be the deciding factor i dont think. Situationally it could be of course, u do have a point.

 

[AlanC9]

If you're running a game big enough to have that much gas from space mining, then you really should be running more than one research world, unless you've cranked down habitable planets.

Edit: I suppose the fraction of gases expected to come from space mining would be fairly constant, then. 1/3? 1/4?

 

[Sigma 582]

Keep in mind that the institute's bonus is provided by ONE POP (even though high upkeep ruler class) with no input, while extra job slots from the labs have to be worked by pops who otherwise could work other jobs.

So if you compare N advanced research complexes plus 1 research institute vs. N+1 ARCs, the former will cost you 2 gasses, 1 energy, 16 CGs, plus potential output of 7 pops doing other jobs (e.g. 28 base minerals plus production modifiers), plus/minus pop upkeep difference between 1 ruler+7 non-rulers vs. 8 specialists.

Furthermore, 16 CGs will require ~2 extra pops working as artisans, spending ~12 minerals and not producing something else (e.g. 8 base minerals plus bonuses). 2 gases are another 10 minerals, slot and 1 pop not working other jobs (e.g. 4 base minerals plus bonuses).

All in all, that ARC (compared to RI) will cost you roughly equivalent of 10+12+10*4 = 62 minerals if you have zero bonus to miners. At reasonable 50% bonus it will be 10+12+10*6 = 82 minerals you could produce/save.
On top of that there's difference between upkeep of 11 specialists (8 researchers, 2 artisans, 1 gas refiner) vs. upkeep of 1 ruler and 10 miners. This varies wildly depending on your government form and living standards, but the latter is usually cheaper. For non-gestalts Science Directors also give you extra 5 amenities which may give some minor bonus to planet overall production via increased stability.

So, the question is, how much science benefit ARC should provide over RI that you would consider it worth equivalent of 82 minerals. When ARC's benefit is better than this amount, you prefer ARC; when it's less, you put RI.

 

[AlanC9]

Ooh, right. Yeah, without accounting for CGs this isn't going to work at all.

Does that mean we need to talk about living standards and trade policies?

 

[fodazd]

I think the research institute is fine. It doesn't need gas or consumer goods, and also provides amenities and a ruler-pop for political power (if you run stratified economy).

 

[NeedPants]

The thing that you're missing is quite simple: the highest tier of research lab needs 1.8 (assuming prosperity is filled out) exotic gas upkeep, the research institute does not. You're also missing the part where that's 8 jobs required per lab, vs only one for the institute. I mention the exotic gas upkeep because that's essentially minerals (and an extra building slot spent somewhere on a refinery). I mention the jobs because those pops have upkeep of their own, which the institute does not. These are non-trivial dependencies.

Also, I would like to point out that your 208% is patently wrong in at least one point, as well as extremely difficult on at least one other point. These being:
-There is no way of having Erudite AND Intelligent on the same species short of finding and exploiting a game bug - these traits are mutually exclusive. (This is the patently wrong one)
-Erudite pops imply a genetically ascended empire, while Psionic ones imply a psionically ascended empire. Yes, it is technically possible to achieve having both traits, by psionically assimilating an already-erudite pop, but it is pretty damn hard and requires some luck too.
-Last I looked you can only have +50% research output from techs (at least, universally) - please enlighten me/us where the last 10% come from

With that said, you're not entirely wrong, the additive nature of the bonus can render it a bit underwhelming in the lategame.

That is strange, I have done genetic engineering in 3 games so far, and every time I have had both intelligent and erudite without abusing any bug/exploit to my knowledge. Top of the screen I get the popup for available gene points and I get to select both.
But that 208% is ofcourse an extreme case, it was just to prove that Stellaris can get crazy xD

Regarding the more serious points you make:
Its 3 researches that each give 20%, for a total of 60, to my knowledge as I see it here ingame, 2.2.2

As far as the 8 jobs are concerned, yes they require more upkeep in terms of food and consumer goods. In terms of housing on the planet, with the institute instead of a lab, I always have either the ability to add more housing or i already have excess housing. That was never the issue, tested it on every planet size between 10 and 25. The upkeep issue is a different one of course. With dedicated research planets (i usually have multiple lol) I have never found myself in a situation where building that extra consumer goods factory on another planet was the problem. Ur right in that it DOES require another building slot somewhere else, but with dedicated planets, my issue is not so much how many total building slots I have, but how much i can fit on ONE planet. I think you know what i mean. I can always capture or colonize that one extra planet late game when gasses and such are the issue aswell, but building a random lab on a new planet, or building it on a dedicated research planet instead of an institute.

So if I understand you correctly, you recommend me to:
Instead of 13 planets with 14 labs
make 14 planets with 13 labs and 1 institute
same gas cost, 1 more planet needed, slightly more upkeep in energy and such, slightly more food coz of more total people but arguably you also have 1 additional planet to produce some food via agri districts etc.
Ive never considered it that way tbh. But its interesting, definitely requires looking into

EDIT: and i forgot, regarding ur last sentence: the ministry of production is MUCH more effective while it fulfills the same role for other resources that lack a ton of those output %bonusses. Part of the reason i find institutes to be bad is the comparison to ministries which are little goldmines if you ask me

 

[Mastikator]

The Research Institute requires you to have Planetary Capital, 40 pops. It can at the earliest be your 7th building. A dedicated research planet will find that to be 5 labs of some kind plus your lab.
The Advanced Research Lab is also locked behind planetary Capital and you'd need 5 to employ the entire planet at that stage. Which you can't because you'll have admins and cops and perhaps priests or entertainers to provide amenities (let's assume 2 entertainers). That's 7 pops doing non-research related jobs.
33 pops to go. You can employ 32 of them in 4 advanced research labs, with 1 pop to spare you're better off having an institute, the Science Director is cheaper to run even, no gas and much less consumer goods.

And this assumes you have literally no worker pops on the planet.

 

[NeedPants]

Keep in mind that the institute's bonus is provided by ONE POP (even though high upkeep ruler class) with no input, while extra job slots from the labs have to be worked by pops who otherwise could work other jobs.

So if you compare N advanced research complexes plus 1 research institute vs. N+1 ARCs, the former will cost you 2 gasses, 1 energy, 16 CGs, plus potential output of 7 pops doing other jobs (e.g. 28 base minerals plus production modifiers), plus/minus pop upkeep difference between 1 ruler+7 non-rulers vs. 8 specialists.

Furthermore, 16 CGs will require ~2 extra pops working as artisans, spending ~12 minerals and not producing something else (e.g. 8 base minerals plus bonuses). 2 gases are another 10 minerals, slot and 1 pop not working other jobs (e.g. 4 base minerals plus bonuses).

All in all, that ARC (compared to RI) will cost you roughly equivalent of 10+12+10*4 = 62 minerals if you have zero bonus to miners. At reasonable 50% bonus it will be 10+12+10*6 = 82 minerals you could produce/save.
On top of that there's difference between upkeep of 11 specialists (8 researchers, 2 artisans, 1 gas refiner) vs. upkeep of 1 ruler and 10 miners. This varies wildly depending on your government form and living standards, but the latter is usually cheaper. For non-gestalts Science Directors also give you extra 5 amenities which may give some minor bonus to planet overall production via increased stability.

So, the question is, how much science benefit ARC should provide over RI that you would consider it worth equivalent of 82 minerals. When ARC's benefit is better than this amount, you prefer ARC; when it's less, you put RI.

Nice nice, this is exactly the reason I post stuff b4 going ham on building up all my planets. The question is not if 1 dedicated consumer goods planet can support itself AND a dedicated research planet for all CS needs, but if the minerals available to the empire are sufficient to produce such quantities. Plus what i mentioned in the post above, looking into building 13 planets with 14 labs or 14 planets with 13 labs and 1 institute, this brings an additional dimension to the issue.

On forehand it seems quite obvious that 14 planets with 13 labs and 1 institute produce more total research, for the same gas, but the mineral cost here is also much higher since u need to build up an additional planet. However if looking at this picture planet per planet, the mineral cost is lower for each coz RI are cheaper and have no mineral based upkeep.

If im swimming in minerals the choice is easy but otherwise, well i guess its more testing for me

 

[NeedPants]

The Research Institute requires you to have Planetary Capital, 40 pops. It can at the earliest be your 7th building. A dedicated research planet will find that to be 5 labs of some kind plus your lab.
The Advanced Research Lab is also locked behind planetary Capital and you'd need 5 to employ the entire planet at that stage. Which you can't because you'll have admins and cops and perhaps priests or entertainers to provide amenities (let's assume 2 entertainers). That's 7 pops doing non-research related jobs.
33 pops to go. You can employ 32 of them in 4 advanced research labs, with 1 pop to spare you're better off having an institute, the Science Director is cheaper to run even, no gas and much less consumer goods.

And this assumes you have literally no worker pops on the planet.

Hah, ur right, it does require a planetary capital, so i can scrap the part about it being good early game since it requires min 40 pops. Roger roger.
Do i need worker pops on a planet? I do tend to have dedicated mining planets and such, my OP came forth out of me trying to minmax stuff while using dedicated planets and ecumenopoli for consumer goods (which im swimming in), which is why i started this in the first place >.<

As for later in the game and your other points, In my OP i have talked about amenities and such, building wise and district wise the combinations I describe above are all doable until I get to the part where its mentioned that it cannot be done xD As for the increase costs, yeah ur right, and it has been mentioned by others too. So far it seems if you can afford it mineral wise to produce more consumer goods etc, it will provide more output to make another lab, but when short on resources an institute provides extra research you could not afford thru any other means. That is the most valid argument so far for sure.

I do want to pose this particular question again, out of interest: compared to the ministry, the institute is without a doubt weaker, while technically its supposed to fulfill the same role. On average the ministry is worth it so much earlier, does this not indicate the institute is rather weak for what its supposed to do? Or perhaps the ministry is too strong?

 

[Mastikator]

Hah, ur right, it does require a planetary capital, so i can scrap the part about it being good early game since it requires min 40 pops. Roger roger.

As for later in the game and your other points, In my OP i have talked about amenities and such, building wise and district wise the combinations I describe above are all doable until I get to the part where its mentioned that it cannot be done xD As for the increase costs, yeah ur right, and it has been mentioned by others too. So far it seems if you can afford it mineral wise to produce more consumer goods etc, it will provide more output to make another lab, but when short on resources an institute provides extra research you could not afford thru any other means. That is the most valid argument so far for sure.

I do want to pose this particular question again, out of interest: compared to the ministry, the institute is without a doubt weaker, while technically its supposed to fulfill the same role. On average the ministry is worth it so much earlier, does this not indicate the institute is rather weak for what its supposed to do? Or perhaps the ministry is too strong?

It will provide more output to make a lab yes but it will provide more research PER COST to make a research institute. Having a more efficient economy means you can have a greater proportion of your empire be research based (or have a bigger fleet, or whatever you fancy you need), this is always a good thing no matter how wide or tall you are.

 

[NeedPants]

It will provide more output to make a lab yes but it will provide more research PER COST to make a research institute. Having a more efficient economy means you can have a greater proportion of your empire be research based (or have a bigger fleet, or whatever you fancy you need), this is always a good thing no matter how wide or tall you are.

Yup I fully get ur point. It would be overall less cost/research with an institute.

But if i want to spend the minerals on my fleet, I would need an additional building slot to make an alloy plant, which would require the workers i saved on not building an additional research building. So depending on what ur after (more alloys or more research) it still leaves something up to discussion.

And the question whether the institute is supposed to be weaker than the ministry of production (despite on first glance appearing equal) for balance reasons or whether this is unintentional.

Thanx for helpin out everyone!

 

[Mastikator]

Yup I fully get ur point. It would be overall less cost/research with an institute.

But if i want to spend the minerals on my fleet, I would need an additional building slot to make an alloy plant, which would require the workers i saved on not building an additional research building. So depending on what ur after (more alloys or more research) it still leaves something up to discussion.

And the question whether the institute is supposed to be weaker than the ministry of production (despite on first glance appearing equal) for balance reasons or whether this is unintentional.

Thanx for helpin out everyone!

You wouldn't put the alloy foundry on the same planet where you put your scientists I hope...

 

[NeedPants]

You wouldn't put the alloy foundry on the same planet where you put your scientists I hope...

Haha noo, dedicated planets only, 2x modifier on planets at creation screen to allow for such specialization. Too bad hives cant make ecumenopoli

 

[Mastikator]

Haha noo, dedicated planets only, 2x modifier on planets at creation screen to allow for such specialization. Too bad hives cant make ecumenopoli

To be fair neither can we since we don't have the DLCs it seems

 

[AlanC9]

I think the research institute is fine. It doesn't need gas or consumer goods, and also provides amenities and a ruler-pop for political power (if you run stratified economy).

I've found the amenities to be surprisingly useful. Best not to run clerks if you don't have to, and a handful of amenities is often all I need to get back into positive territory, after administrators and gene clinics.