Research Balance

[richtern]

I was just looking through traits, ethos, and government and noticed an extreme ability to maximize research from the beginning and was wonder if this has been tested for balance.

The following combination will result in 25% research bonus in two research categories and 40% bonus in one:

Govt: Despotic Hegemony +5% all research
Trait: Intelligent +10% all, Natural Researcher +15% to one
Ethos: Fanatic Materialism +10% to all

Having not played the game yet my concern may be unfounded but the research bonuses seem high enough to threaten game balance.

 

[corny.1234]

Having not played the game yet my concern may be unfounded but the research bonuses seem high enough to threaten game balance.

Me neither, nor anyone else

 

[Simaimch]

Research? Pah! My one billion giant ant warriors will exterminate your hundred singularity-shooting aliens in their hover-tanks in no time. With nothing but sharp stones at the end of sticks. I'll just apply the Zapp Brannigan-strategy: send wave after wave until you run out of anmmunition.

Everything depends on how big the differences between the different ranks of technology are. From everything I've seen so far high research doesn't appear to be stronger than other specialisations.

 

[Hakkera]

It will also largely depend on what ananomalys you find, some boost your research a lot.

Also, other empires get bonusses on mineral stuff so they have more slots free to build research builinds, guess it will more or less balance out

 

[Sapidianus]

Despotic hegemony gives 5% to all research, while traits and ethos give bonus to pops working on corresponding tiles.

Also you have to keep in mind, that people tend to specialize their characters/nations/empires if that gives them an edge over opponents. Some will all-in science bonuses, others will stack minerals or military bonuses.

 

[patrikn]

First of all the 5% from Despotic Hegemony is not the same as from the ethos and traits (as far as I know). Perhaps it has been explained somewhere but I don't think we know exactly how research speed and research output work together. Anyway I would be very surprised if they are not thinking about this sort of thing when balancing.

 

[aitaituo]

First of all the 5% from Despotic Hegemony is not the same as from the ethos and traits (as far as I know). Perhaps it has been explained somewhere but I don't think we know exactly how research speed and research output work together. Anyway I would be very surprised if they are not thinking about this sort of thing when balancing.

I feel like there was a dev post that clarified these two recently, but can't remember where it was.

 

[patrikn]

I feel like there was a dev post that clarified these two recently, but can't remember where it was.

Do you remember what it said?

 

[Murmeldjuret]

While I may feel the +10% science trait might be a bit too strong, it is not so apparently strong it needs to be changed outright. The game is still not released. If after release 75%+ use it they might change it in a post-release patch.

The ethos and government come at other costs. I personally feel that +1 card drawn during tech seems way way stronger than +5% speed. Thats something in the excess of 33% higher chance of getting rare tech.

 

[flazeo255]

10% output isn't that strong till later on if your producing 2 engineering on a tile, then you instead be producing 2.2 on that tile with species with 10% output on engineering.

The output gets stronger the better labs being used.

 

[Murmeldjuret]

10% output isn't that strong till later on if your producing 2 engineering on a tile, then you instead be producing 2.2 on that tile with species with 10% output on engineering.

The traits are the most relevant early game, as their value diminishes as empires diverge from anomaly, tech, planets available. While still useful, they will matter less, especially since you can use several POPs with different traits.

The reason 10% research is often valued higher than 10% minerals is that it often gives you techs that are more valuable than 10% minerals. Getting those techs 10% quicker often yields more than +10% minerals. Given that the tech is randomized it will probably not be as big an issue as in other 4X games, so I have no problem with +10% research making it into release, but my guess is that it might be fixed later if proven to strong or even just believed to be too strong to diversify player choice.

 

[Chaos_TLW]

I'll just apply the Zapp Brannigan-strategy: send wave after wave until you run out of anmmunition.

No, no, the correct Zapp Brannigan Strategy(TM) is: Send wave after wave until their weapons are jammed with your chitinous exoskeletons and their infantry drowns in your green goo-like blood

 

[Ex Mudder]

10% output isn't that strong till later on if your producing 2 engineering on a tile, then you instead be producing 2.2 on that tile with species with 10% output on engineering.

The output gets stronger the better labs being used.

As I understand it:

5% research speed applies to all research, and is additive to things like scientist level (+2%/level) and scientist traits.

10% research per POP, or 20% (Intelligent + Fanatic Materialist) means a base 2 research tile with a 1/1/1 lab on it produces 1/3/1 (total 5) vs 1.1/3.3/1.1 (total 5.5) vs 1.2/3.6/1.2 (total 6) research per worked POP tile. I have only seen 2/1/1 1/2/1 1/1/2 research labs so far.

Materialist / Intelligent does not apply to the base 5/5/5 research you start with or the various +research you get from research outposts or as rewards for anomalies, which is where much of your early game research will come from.

Doesn't seem that OP, as the techs in this game seem fairly moderate: +5% minerals, or research speed, or habitability.

Compare this to the bonus of Fanatic Spiritualist of +10% happiness. There is a screenshot where If your POPs happiness is 70% or higher, you get a +10% to all POP output.

I mostly like Materialist for the government types, and that the bonus applies to whomever works the tile, not just your race.

 

[richtern]

Thank you all for pointing out the difference between output and speed. That definitely diminishes the impact of the bonuses. Thanks again!

 

[Ragnar89]

As I understand it:

5% research speed applies to all research, and is additive to things like scientist level (+2%/level) and scientist traits.

10% research per POP, or 20% (Intelligent + Fanatic Materialist) means a base 2 research tile with a 1/1/1 lab on it produces 1/3/1 (total 5) vs 1.1/3.3/1.1 (total 5.5) vs 1.2/3.6/1.2 (total 6) research per worked POP tile. I have only seen 2/1/1 1/2/1 1/1/2 research labs so far.

Materialist / Intelligent does not apply to the base 5/5/5 research you start with or the various +research you get from research outposts or as rewards for anomalies, which is where much of your early game research will come from.

Doesn't seem that OP, as the techs in this game seem fairly moderate: +5% minerals, or research speed, or habitability.

Compare this to the bonus of Fanatic Spiritualist of +10% happiness. There is a screenshot where If your POPs happiness is 70% or higher, you get a +10% to all POP output.

I mostly like Materialist for the government types, and that the bonus applies to whomever works the tile, not just your race.

I agree totally with your analisys.

Also in my opinion, the traits and ethos that improve your economy will be much more useful than the improved research:
For example you could create a race with a +15% minerals, +35% energy, +10% food and +10% happiness. And this, always in my opinion, seems to be a much more powerful combo: since you could use all of this resources to improve the research by building new stations and research labs, and also having much more money for everything else.

For me, the materialist ethos is more interesting because it unlock the materialist government branch and for cybernetics research. And of course for roleplaying.

 

[flazeo255]

Main Science thing would be what effects having a scientist as your ruler instead of a governer, as we havent seen non governer rulers shown.

 

[barny]

Considering that there seem to be traits for the scientists that gives you something like +20% speed, those modifiers are nice, but not breaking the game.

I mean that is one of the most basic balance testing: Put all traits and ethos modifiers for one are together and look how well it does.

 

[ahhheygao]

Having not played the game yet my concern may be unfounded but the research bonuses seem high enough to threaten game balance.

Here's what a dev had to say about your concern:

There is one that gives better research. I always pick that one, so i expect it will be nerfed soon..