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WiSK

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Jinnai said:
Actually yes i do have some idea atleast.
Sorry, but unless you've seen the source for how Johan has implemented the ToT, HRE and straits, the plain fact of the matter is that you are guessing.

Jinnai said:
Making anything moddable isn't simple, epseically when doing so to an existing engine. The fact he can load CSV files in only 1 thing. He also has it coded to look specifically at certain parts of the coded files, the way the event that creates the ToT conditions fire special hardcoded tags, the way he'd haveto turn off many functions already in existance, then make a way in the code to change the way csv file for province.csv is read, then actually impliment the changes to province.csv for the next patch for each and every province in vanilla. Your not talking here about simply adding some new code to the exe here.
Right, all of that above is a guess. I can also speculate about Johan's method for implementing this in another way which is easily moddable.

For instance, what if the ToT list is an array of pairs which are initialised as follows:
Code:
typedef struct { int prov_id; int nation; } TOTEntry;
TOTEntry TOTlist[99] = 
 { 179, TOT_SPAIN },
 { 180, TOT_SPAIN },
 { 181, TOT_SPAIN },
 ...
 { 202, TOT_PORTUGAL },
 { 203, TOT_PORTUGAL },
 { 204, TOT_PORTUGAL },
 ...
With some simple find&replace he can make that into a CSV file. It doesn't have to be added to province.csv at all. Then, during initialisation, he just adds a call to his load_csv function which will load the values from tot.csv into the array which is there already.

But as I said: I'm guessing, you're guessing.

Jinnai said:
As to the -6 functionality, the fact is something like it already exists for commands. while its not as simple as making a new command, its hardly comprable to making ToT provinces moddable.
So -6 functionality already exists for some commands? So logically we can guess that it must be added separately to each command, depending on context. Therefore, it would take longer than adding a call to load a csv.

Again: I'm guessing, you're guessing.

Jinnai said:
Because I already know the answer.
No, you're guessing. According to your post above, somebody has told you Johan won't spend much time if any on new functionality. Your reaction seems to be that you have decided - without seeing any source code nor asking Johan himself - what will take time and what is easy. However, neither you nor I know what Johan can do easily. Therefore I would agree that keeping the wishlist small is a good tactic, but I suggest that you leave the implementation up to Johan.

The reason I argue this is from professional experience. I often have clients who try to tell me the solutions to the problems in their software. Often they don't even explain the problem, just demand the solution. Whereas, if they had explained the problem, I could present several solutions and explain the benefits and costs of each of them.

So if were Johan (and clearly I'm not), I would prefer to read in the wishlist: "In order to take full advantage of the extra 400 province ids, we need the list of TOT, HRE and straits provinces to be expanded. Ideally these would be editable in CSV files, but some extra province ids added to the hardcoded list would also be acceptable." This way, he understands the motivation for the request.
 

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Jinnai said:
However if anyone has any different numbers for strait triplets or hardcoded province ids, then now would be the time to voice your prefered numbers.

Also any priorities. It seems almost everyone is in for (at a minimum) wanting him to add more of the former stuff, albeit the numbers aren't clear yet.

Outside that, i haven't seen as much agreement, so if you can tell me other than that what you'd like to see of the 1st list, please let me know.
Actually, this is another reason why I don't think we should give up on asking for the TOT, HRE and straits to be moddable. Exactly because we can't know beforehand how many provinces we need for each.
 

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WiSK said:
Actually, this is another reason why I don't think we should give up on asking for the TOT, HRE and straits to be moddable. Exactly because we can't know beforehand how many provinces we need for each.
I agree. I think we should ask for them as being moddable. Then if he refuses we can ask for new prov ids with HRE and ToT.
 

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I have to agree with IDLF and WiSK on this one.
 

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WISK said:
So -6 functionality already exists for some commands? So logically we can guess that it must be added separately to each command, depending on context. Therefore, it would take longer than adding a call to load a csv.
All of you are agreeing based on your own assumptions. While I haven't talked to him directly, I have asked those who know him best and what he can and can't do better than anyone but himself. Adding a function call is childs play compared to making ToT or anything moddable, atleast in repsect to time, but also in the ease of doing it. Remember its not only ease, but time as well.

What are you, Suite, IDLF all basing your guessing on? Yes i I know you're a prgoramer, but you don't know what Johan has to do. You haven't even asked anyone as far as I can tell what he'd be willing to do.
WISK said:
No, you're guessing. According to your post above, somebody has told you Johan won't spend much time if any on new functionality. Your reaction seems to be that you have decided - without seeing any source code nor asking Johan himself - what will take time and what is easy. However, neither you nor I know what Johan can do easily. Therefore I would agree that keeping the wishlist small is a good tactic, but I suggest that you leave the implementation up to Johan.
This person is also a programer and knows more about what Johan can do than anyone but Johan himself. This is confirmed by others than myself.
WISK said:
The reason I argue this is from professional experience. I often have clients who try to tell me the solutions to the problems in their software. Often they don't even explain the problem, just demand the solution. Whereas, if they had explained the problem, I could present several solutions and explain the benefits and costs of each of them.

So if were Johan (and clearly I'm not), I would prefer to read in the wishlist: "In order to take full advantage of the extra 400 province ids, we need the list of TOT, HRE and straits provinces to be expanded. Ideally these would be editable in CSV files, but some extra province ids added to the hardcoded list would also be acceptable." This way, he understands the motivation for the request.
Oh i don't disagree this isn't beyond his ability. I'm saying it would be beyond his effort for what he's going to get out of it.
 
Last edited:

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Jinnai,

I was the one arguing that you are guessing. I was the one saying that you are making decisions based on your own assumptions. In your last post you seem to make an attempt to turn my arguments around on to me. I don't find that a very fair way of discussion, so I will stop now.

For the sake of the argument, I almost wish I hadn't made the suggestion about adding fixed province ids to the ToT, HRE lists. But that would be sour grapes. For the needs of the modding community, it is of course a very acceptable solution. So, do what you think is best.
 

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Yea i understand how in hindsight you wouldn't like that idea, but it would likely have been dropped otherwise, despite its support. As i said, its not nessarily the complexity of the work, but time it takes as well Johan considers.
 

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IMO, I don't see how it would hurt to phrase it the way WisK suggested (i.e. something like "whichever is easiest between the two options, hard-code vs. moddability..." within the ToT and HRE prov requests).

I will likely send this to HC tonight. I'll bring Wisk's suggestion to the table, AFAS it's fairly tactful, but HC can simply decide. The main thing is we axed a bunch of requests and refined quite a bit, which we should be quite proud of at this stage.
 

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Ok, well, HC will settle the approach then, and I'll reference your concern, Jinnai, including the post where you checked with a few sources close to Johan. Any chance of revealing those sources?

I'll take Jinnai's last list.
 

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Don't count on any more changes.
I exported some stuff like ToT, HRE and straits to moddable files and fixed the vassal war.
 

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a true wizard.
 

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Thanks Johan! :cool:
 

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Norrefeldt said:
I wonder how the reduction of HRE is done now. I suppose that one is still hardcoded?

that one does not exist anymore.