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MattyG

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Since Venice got smacked down by Genoa, wouldn't it make sense for Sicily to drift towards byzantium since they would have somewhat of a common enemy to trade?

How might this express itself in events, as different from starting relations?
 

Monkii-sama

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How might this express itself in events, as different from starting relations?

Guess I'll have to think about that one.
 

Monkii-sama

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Why isn't gotland hanseatic from start? Visby is a classic hansa town if there ever was one.
 

MattyG

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Why isn't gotland hanseatic from start? Visby is a classic hansa town if there ever was one.

I actually think we ought to be dumping hanseatic culture. I think it's a bit of a nonesense. We just didn't know how to give the hansa right culture without it being abusive (Greman, Scandinavian, English and Italian might have been just a little too much ...)
 

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All the towns in the Baltic (and beyond) were "Hansaetic". I think Hansa should be given German and Baltic and/or Scandinavian.
 

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I actually like Hanseatic as a culture, as it represents the Hanseatic trade concerns. Wrong culture gives lower income, which represents the fact that the Hansa has economic control over the area, even if it lost actual control of it.
Hanseatic provinces should have an event converting them to their "native" culture, but they should only fire if the province is not owned by the Hansa and the owner is very mercantilistic (free-traders wouldn't force out the Hansa merchants) and would result in losses of trade investment, lower relations with the Hansa, more mercantilism, and possibly a province tax loss to represent essentially a mass property-seizure campaign against the merchants.
 

Monkii-sama

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I actually think we ought to be dumping hanseatic culture. I think it's a bit of a nonesense. We just didn't know how to give the hansa right culture without it being abusive (Greman, Scandinavian, English and Italian might have been just a little too much ...)

From a cultural point of view it's complete nonsense but from a gameplay view it's a great culture if done right. I don't know, I thought it was horrible when I fired up the game the first time but it has grown on me.
 

MattyG

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From a cultural point of view it's complete nonsense but from a gameplay view it's a great culture if done right. I don't know, I thought it was horrible when I fired up the game the first time but it has grown on me.

It was much debated.

It is meant to represent this cosmopolitan, merchant-culture, frecity attitude, which sets it aside from the rest of German society.

I don't think it's complete nonesense, culturally. Dutch is complete nonesense, culturally, from an Interregnum point of view. Except that it did happen. Ditto Ukrainian. If the right cultural influences come along, any and every culture will change. So if the germanic peoples of the lowlands can branch off culturally, so too can the cities of the league.

Game-play wise it has value, and it's kind of fun.

But I think we need events for those cities to rever, eventually (offset 1000?), once the hsna falls apart.
 

MattyG

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All the towns in the Baltic (and beyond) were "Hansaetic". I think Hansa should be given German and Baltic and/or Scandinavian.

The game-play implications of this are pretty powerful.

And I don't see how the Hansa could have acheived such sultural/political union beyond its trade cities. If it conquers all of Germany, the baltic states and Scabdinavia, would they still all be 'right culture'?
 

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I agree. In that case, there should be more Hanseatic-cultured provinces. Like Visby, Novgorod, Danzig, Riga, Stockholm, Bergen, Oslo, etc..

This coupled with what Slavick says in post #28.
 

unmerged(36826)

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From my experience Hanseatic culture is just too small compared to all the other majors, for the first century or so it is just 4 provinces wide, which is quite a crippling effect in terms of manpower and such when put to the other majors (Bavaria's all encompassing German, the TO ridiculous amount of cultures, Brittany's french and breton, etc etc)

I would suggest that either more provinces should start out as Hanseatic as a culture in more provinces, or have an almost instantaneous change when they are taken by the Hansa. Or give them German until the events changing provinces to Hanseatic fire.
 

MattyG

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Languedoc doesn't have a lot of starting manpoower either, compared to, say, the Tuetonic Order.

But we can't have all nations starting with the same stats. Each must be distinct, both in qualities and opportunities.

The Hansa starts with 3 CoTs.

Sorry, did I just write 3, as in three?! As in two more than Genoa and three more than Bavaria?

Wow, no other country has that. Maybe we shoul give them all 3 CoTs? That way it's balanced.

The Hansa is not supposed to be a land power, at least not in 1419. It is the anithesis of a land power. It is an economic power, and one shouldn't be playing it expecting to have a servicable number of troops to compete with states like Bavaria, Brittany or the Order. Genoa is very similar (except it has only one CoT, just 1). It should seek to avoid war, building its techs and being able to colonize extensively in the early 1500s and then making a fortune out of trade. In fact, even the ai manages this with the League (and the ai doesn't do much very well).

The Hansa is a fine country, and fun to play. But if there's an MP game where the ethic is fast expension and swamping opponents with manpower in the first 80 years, then states like Hansa and Genoa would be poor choices. But that doesn't mean we should be changing these countries to be able to compete with the land powers for manpower.
 

Monkii-sama

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I'm not saying that all nations should be equal, just that it really makes sense to have Visby hanseatic. Besides, it's a good islandbase for a navy in the baltic.
 

chefkoch

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It is meant to represent this cosmopolitan, merchant-culture, frecity attitude, which sets it aside from the rest of German society.
Ehm what? :eek: Aside from the rest of german society? :eek:

Free cities could be found in the whole empire, especially in the southwestern region and Thuringia. The list is so long (85 free cities) and the few coastal free cities were nothing special except for their harbours. This was nothing special.

free cities in 1648
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datei:Holy_Roman_Empire_1648_Imperial_cities.png

The cosmopolitan-merchant-attitude could be found in every bigger city or how would you describe the surroundings in which the trade empires of the Fugger (Augsburg), the von Simmelsdorf (Nürnberg), the Welser (Nürnberg), the Schürer (Wernesgrün/Saxony), the Oelhafen (Leipzig/Saxony) the Vöhlin (Memmingen) or of the Höchstetter (Augsburg) families grew? Farming villages? Isolationistic hillbillys? The most important and richest merchant families did not came from the northsea- or the eastsea(baltic)coast. Was it a coincidence that e.g. Leipzig (my hometown) was a center of the east-west-trade (especially for fur) and established as first city in Europe a regular trade fair? Leipzig was never a free city. Leipzig had no harbour (Hitler started the construction of one but then something crossed his plans...). Had the merchants of Leipzig no cosmopolitan-merchant-attitude? What about the rich traders from Nürnberg or Augsburg? How would you define a cosmopolitan-merchant-attitude?

The hanseatic cities as places of an unique trader-attitude and an unique merchant-spirit? Laughable. If you made this for gameplay reasons - okay, thats the weakest of all arguments but it is still an acceptable one. But please don't try to justify this with real history.
 
Last edited:

MattyG

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Ehm what? :eek: Aside from the rest of german society? :eek:

Free cities could be found in the whole empire, especially in the southwestern region and Thuringia. The list is so long (85 free cities) and the few coastal free cities were nothing special except for their harbours. This was nothing special.

free cities in 1648
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datei:Holy_Roman_Empire_1648_Imperial_cities.png

The cosmopolitan-merchant-attitude could be found in every bigger city or how would you describe the surroundings in which the trade empires of the Fugger (Augsburg), the von Simmelsdorf (Nürnberg), the Welser (Nürnberg), the Schürer (Wernesgrün/Saxony), the Oelhafen (Leipzig/Saxony) the Vöhlin (Memmingen) or of the Höchstetter (Augsburg) families grew? Farming villages? Isolationistic hillbillys? The most important and richest merchant families did not came from the northsea- or the eastsea(baltic)coast. Was it a coincidence that e.g. Leipzig (my hometown) was a center of the east-west-trade (especially for fur) and established as first city in Europe a regular trade fair? Leipzig was never a free city. Leipzig had no harbour (Hitler started the construction of one but then something crossed his plans...). Had the merchants of Leipzig no cosmopolitan-merchant-attitude? What about the rich traders from Nürnberg or Augsburg? How would you define a cosmopolitan-merchant-attitude?

The hanseatic cities as places of an unique trader-attitude and an unique merchant-spirit? Laughable. If you made this for gameplay reasons - okay, thats the weakest of all arguments but it is still an acceptable one. But please don't try to justify this with real history.

1. I did say I wasn't personally convinced by it.

2. It was never my idea, I am trying to condense the arguments made for its inclusion, not necessarily defend it.

3. I am not personally in favour of game-play oriented decisions. I say scrap Hanseatic culture, the Hansa gets German and - maybe - Baltic cultures, and has to suck-up the wrong-culture stuff for London, Gotland, Novgorod and Tuscany.
 

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Visby should convert culture to german in that case, but revert to scandinavian if any other german power than Hansa owns it.
 

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I don't like the idea of giving the Hansa German for precisely the reasons DrBob pointed out. They are supposed to have low manpower, and aren't supposed to expand much in Europe. They are a trading and then colonial power. In wars, their defense is their fleet, and the fact that their holdings are far-flung, preventing anyone without a navy from successfully taking them on.

Giving the Hansa German culture is simply an invitation for them to go on a land conquest adventure in Germany. While they are weaker than Bavaria or the Order, they can still easily take on the 1 or 2 province minors that make up a significant portion of Germany. This places them in the unique role of being a colonizing nation with a large right-culture right-religion territory in which to expand.
Eire has only 3 (5 if you include Wales and Galicia) provinces with the right culture that they do not own at start, and 3 of them are likely to be wrong religion, and held by a strong opponent.
Sicily (once Italian is removed) has 1 (+2 in Africa through events).
Brittany has to make a choice between two secondary cultures, and faces strong opponents in taking either.
Al-Andalus has to deal with the crusade, and there is only 1 Andalusi province they don't own at start. They have Arabic, but that is far from their usual area of expansion and on a different continent besides. (Personally, I don't think Al-Andalus should have Arabic anyways.)
Genoa has to face Milan and the Pope if it wants to expand in Italy.

Giving Hansa German culture would be giving them too much power that they can easily consolidate in the early game. In a way, they become like Russia in AGCEEP, if Russia was in the Latin tech group from 1419 and Siberia was filled with BTV 8 Sugar provinces.
 

MattyG

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I don't like the idea of giving the Hansa German for precisely the reasons DrBob pointed out. They are supposed to have low manpower, and aren't supposed to expand much in Europe. They are a trading and then colonial power. In wars, their defense is their fleet, and the fact that their holdings are far-flung, preventing anyone without a navy from successfully taking them on.

Giving the Hansa German culture is simply an invitation for them to go on a land conquest adventure in Germany. While they are weaker than Bavaria or the Order, they can still easily take on the 1 or 2 province minors that make up a significant portion of Germany. This places them in the unique role of being a colonizing nation with a large right-culture right-religion territory in which to expand.
Eire has only 3 (5 if you include Wales and Galicia) provinces with the right culture that they do not own at start, and 3 of them are likely to be wrong religion, and held by a strong opponent.
Sicily (once Italian is removed) has 1 (+2 in Africa through events).
Brittany has to make a choice between two secondary cultures, and faces strong opponents in taking either.
Al-Andalus has to deal with the crusade, and there is only 1 Andalusi province they don't own at start. They have Arabic, but that is far from their usual area of expansion and on a different continent besides. (Personally, I don't think Al-Andalus should have Arabic anyways.)
Genoa has to face Milan and the Pope if it wants to expand in Italy.

Giving Hansa German culture would be giving them too much power that they can easily consolidate in the early game. In a way, they become like Russia in AGCEEP, if Russia was in the Latin tech group from 1419 and Siberia was filled with BTV 8 Sugar provinces.

Hence the dilemma.

Hanseatic culture is bollocks, German culture releases an unwanted beast.

There is a third (and fourth) option.

Hansa has no culture group.

This reflects its urban, port-town burgher support base, and that - actually - they ought not to have all that rural countryside of the provinces we have no choice but to give them.

This would restrict their Manpower, but that's the point, right, we don't want them to gain a lot of manpower.

It would mean high stab costs, which seems appropriate for such an organization, so far flung.

So they'd need to spend all that cash on mercenaries, which is very very realistic, and encourage them to avoid wars at (almost) all costs. At least until they colonize.

That's where the next problem would come in. We can't have new world provinces with no culture. Doesn't make any sense. But presumably these places would be multi-ethnic with a strong german slant, or else each colony might be dominated by a particular culture within the league.

So, here would be the solution (requiring a lot of coding from me).

Each time the Hansa establish a colony, they'd get the choice of what culture group it would be: German, Baltic, Scandinavian or Italian. Neither much matters to them, so no doubt a player will have some fun with it.

To balance the challenge of having no right culture provinces, each province they own could have an even granting it a permanent -1 RR (or -2).