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daemonofdecay

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blue emu said:
Why do you see a need for a nationality-specific or model-specific bonus, when the basic tech stats should give exactly the result you are asking for?

Too many people can't comprehend that all the scale HoI takes place in, whether you have Shermans or PzKpfw IVs is not going to be a telling difference.

That, and they underestimate both the effects of doctrines and the new tech system PI is putting into HOI3. If you want to build the best (and most expensive) Armour divisions in HOI3, you can do it.
 

unmerged(74599)

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Conceptually the Doctrine tree is the one where these tactical training advantages have an impact. This is one of the really strong points of the HOI design, IMO.
 

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blue emu said:
... but Shermans and Panthers (or JagdPanthers) will be nowhere near each other on the HOI-3 tech tree. When you call them "the same"... you are thinking of HOI-2, not HOI-3.

Let's reverse the roles:

Picture a Division of German Mk-IVs (which are roughly equivalent in HOI-3 techs to the Sherman... 75 mm high velocity gun, Welded or Cast Armor, similar Engine) approaching a forested hill where a bunch of US Pershing or Patton tanks lie concealed. These models are roughly equivalent (in HOI-3 terms) to the Panther or Jagdpanther... similar gun, armor, engine, etc.

What would be the result?

Why do you see a need for a nationality-specific or model-specific bonus, when the basic tech stats should give exactly the result you are asking for?

I just think AFV ballistics technology is poorly represented in HoI2. It's importance is under-valued, therefore it's OK to just have all of the various vehicles be the same. To me, that just demonstrates a total lack of appreciation for A) certain nations' aptitudes for developing high velocity cannons, and B) the vital importance of how this would effect the result of armored engagements. I know that not all engagements were armored engagements... but blast... this is where all the important stuff is happening.

It's like torpedoes, man. Certain nations (namely the USA) had REALLY SUCKY torpedoes, for a good portion of the war... 60+ percent dud ratio IIRC. Damn frustrating, even though Einstein looked at it & told them what the problem was, they wouldn't bother to fix it. Then, some other nation had torpedoes that would hunt you down like a heat-seeking missile, and blow you in half, without fail. See, those 2 subs should get different attack ratings, right? I think so. Now, let's look at the tanks. Tank A has a gun w/ muzzle velocity of 927 m/s. Pretty darn good. Tank B is around 560 m/s. "Welcome to jungle, baby! Time to DIE!!" :eek:
 

daemonofdecay

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Jagdmaus said:
It's like torpedoes, man. Certain nations (namely the USA) had REALLY SUCKY torpedoes, for a good portion of the war... 60+ percent dud ratio IIRC. Damn frustrating, even though Einstein looked at it & told them what the problem was, they wouldn't bother to fix it. Then, some other nation had torpedoes that would hunt you down like a heat-seeking missile, and blow you in half, without fail. See, those 2 subs should get different attack ratings, right?

And how is this not going to be represented with Doctrines, Ministers, different techs, and whatever customization is available for Naval Units?

Why does Germany get entitled to having their armored units at +1 Hard Attack beyond whatever doctrine or tech they research? Why should the US's subs get penalized for something that I as the player might choose to correct?

More effective torpedoes should be one of the researchable techs, and nations like Germany and Japan should have the blueprints/tech already researched while the US should not. That would reflect the historical situation while allowing the US to work to change it if they wanted. Boom, history is represented.
 

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Jagdmaus said:
Now, let's look at the tanks. Tank A has a gun w/ muzzle velocity of 927 m/s. Pretty darn good. Tank B is around 560 m/s. "Welcome to jungle, baby! Time to DIE!!" :eek:

But in the real world, it's not just endless tank vs. tank combat, and tanks are the minority in a 'tank' units until you get down to regiments or battalions. Even then, those size units don't necessarily all have the same number of tanks. Tank B's division would almost certainly be compensated-more tanks, or additional AT weaponry, or infantry in half-tracks instead of trucks, or tactics developed by the inferior equipped tankers to take out their superior counterparts. These differences are already pretty much confirmed for HoI3.
 

blue emu

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Jagdmaus said:
I just think AFV ballistics technology is poorly represented in HoI2. It's importance is under-valued, therefore it's OK to just have all of the various vehicles be the same. To me, that just demonstrates a total lack of appreciation for A) certain nations' aptitudes for developing high velocity cannons... Now, let's look at the tanks. Tank A has a gun w/ muzzle velocity of 927 m/s. Pretty darn good. Tank B is around 560 m/s. "Welcome to jungle, baby! Time to DIE!!" :eek:
But these stats have nothing to do with country-specific "uber-guns"... they simply represent differing research and manufacturing priorities!

You are familiar with the US 90mm L/53 gun, as fitted to the World War II M-36 Tank Destroyer and the Pershing/Patton line of tanks? Muzzle velocities ranged from 823 m/sec (for the M1A1 version) to 975 m/sec (for the T15 version). That easily beats the performance of an 88mm KwK 36, and falls barely short of the performance of an 88mm KwK 43 (1000 m/sec vs 975 m/sec).

What does ANY of this have to do with "certain nations' aptitudes for developing high velocity cannons"?

The reasons that US tanks did not routinely carry that gun were purely doctrinal and logistical, not technical. In other words... it was the result of a deliberate CHOICE, not the result of incapacity, or some mysterious and mystical German "uber-gun" design ability.

US tanks had to be transported across an ocean and then be unloaded by dock-side cranes. They had to be serviced and maintained in the field, thousands of miles from the factories that made them. They could NOT be sent home for major repairs. A decision was made to restrict the size of the gun... which in turn allows narrower turret rings, easier transport and unloading, lower recoil forces and therefore easier maintenance and less down-time.

My point, though is this... it was the result of a deliberate choice (right or wrong). In HOI-3, the US player is not required to make the same choice. He can, instead, research 90mm guns and sloped armor, and build Tanks with performance characteristics similar to Panthers or Tigers.

Where does "Race" come into this equation?
 

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Jagdmaus said:
I just think AFV ballistics technology is poorly represented in HoI2. It's importance is under-valued, therefore it's OK to just have all of the various vehicles be the same. To me, that just demonstrates a total lack of appreciation for A) certain nations' aptitudes for developing high velocity cannons, and B) the vital importance of how this would effect the result of armored engagements. I know that not all engagements were armored engagements... but blast... this is where all the important stuff is happening.

It's like torpedoes, man. Certain nations (namely the USA) had REALLY SUCKY torpedoes, for a good portion of the war... 60+ percent dud ratio IIRC. Damn frustrating, even though Einstein looked at it & told them what the problem was, they wouldn't bother to fix it. Then, some other nation had torpedoes that would hunt you down like a heat-seeking missile, and blow you in half, without fail. See, those 2 subs should get different attack ratings, right? I think so. Now, let's look at the tanks. Tank A has a gun w/ muzzle velocity of 927 m/s. Pretty darn good. Tank B is around 560 m/s. "Welcome to jungle, baby! Time to DIE!!" :eek:

Tech's and doctrines will probably take care of much of those differences, but would you really want everything to be hardcoded so the IJN always had the best torpedoes, the US torpedoes were always worthless for the first year or two of the war, the Germans always produced strong tanks with great guns that were hard to produce and broke down a lot, and the US always produced lighter tanks that were much easier to produce and were more reliable?

That seems like it would really limit the replayability of the game, and limit your strategic options. I love the idea of the tech tree allowing you to design different tanks and ships, as opposed to the bland mess we have now - but I don't see the point of limiting your choices to what the nations historically produced. I love Panzer General, but HoI isn't nearly the same game.
 

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Cueball said:
No. It was not a feint. A feint means implies fake. There was nothing about the attempt by Hoepner's troops to cross the Meuse that was fake. Crossing the Meuse and breaking out of the bridgehead there was an important military objective all on its own, which the Germans pursued agressively, as part of their plan to squeeze the Allies and knock the Belgian army out of the war. It was, if anything, in the grand scale of things a pinning action.

This does not mean that the Germans pretended to attack, and does not mean that the fighting was not real and intense. Hoepner's orders were to make a bridgehead, and advance, while the French orders were to hold Hannut, for two days. That is what they did -- it was not one of Hitler's ridiculous stand firm orders. Success is measure on how well one carries out ones mission: The French Cavalry succeeded in their mission and then withdrew as according to their plan.

But that is really irrelevant to the whole issue at hand, because, even if it was a feint, as part of a larger operation to fool the French and English into making bad choices, that has nothing to do with doctrine. Generals have been trying to fool each other, and disguise their intentions, since the dawn of war, and that has nothing to do with "Blitzkreig" as a doctrine.
It was a feint, not fake attack, meant to tie down the enemy from redeploying. The German Army Group B was by far the weakest of the two main German commands, going up against fortifications and a numerically superior enemy, the best of the French and British, as well as the Belgians.


Cueball said:
You have no evidence to support this assessement. I have outlined specific things that Gemelin did that entirely fit within a concept of mobile warfare, using the French Cavalry Army to stem the advance of the German attack in Belgium, in order to delay the attack in order to set up proper defenses is one, ordering an immediate counter attack from the North against the flank of German attack in the Ardennes is another.

Try not to forget that the assements of contemporaries such William Shrirer, are highly influenced by politics, and that he was first and foremost a journalist trying to sell popular books, while anything said by the British, especially Winston Churchill are also highly political statements intended to argue a case that reflects well on the British army that he led during the war.
That is true, but most historians is in complete agreement here. I do own Churchill's memoirs, and admit to having used that as one of my sources, but my arguements are based as much as i can (crossreferenced with other sources), on written accounts (meaning notes, letters, orders), rather than personal opinions of the writer(s) (IE, "i thought this move to be stupid").

Churchill for example, says there was a lot to be liked about Gamelin. He was sharp, intelligent, and had a good military mind.

On the other hand (this is not from Churchill, hehe), his whole military career had been revolving around WW1, and he did not seem to be able to quite comprehend mobile warfare. He seemed very deeply set in the static war doctrine, and continued throughout the invasion (as long as he remained in office) to propose new scenarios of this type (fortification and entrenchment).

This is a very common failure of the era, affecting many of German high command as well, being mostly infantry commanders. Germany had the advantage in visionaries like Guderian, who shifted the focus of the German army into a breakthrough and mobility doctrine. France had their own visionary in Charles De Gaulle, but he was only a colonel at the time, and couldnt get much done.

Cueball said:
As Stephen T points out the problems were to do with the lack of co-ordination, and the British attack at Arras would more rightly considered a probing action, one which almost defeated Rommel, and had this attack been part of a larger assault carried out with French support, and hypothetically speaking had not the Allied command misintepretted the German actions, and had the First French Cavalry been on hand, then I dare say the attack on Rommel at Arras would have been succesful.
Very true, but as with most "what if's", it is very easy to say later that "they should have done this". Rommel was definitely in deeeep.. on that occation :)
 

daemonofdecay

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blue emu said:
But these stats have nothing to do with country-specific "uber-guns"... they simply represent differing research and manufacturing priorities!

You are familiar with the US 90mm L/53 gun, as fitted to the World War II M-36 Tank Destroyer and the Pershing/Patton line of tanks? Muzzle velocities ranged from 823 m/sec (for the M1A1 version) to 975 m/sec (for the T15 version). That easily beats the performance of an 88mm KwK 36, and falls barely short of the performance of an 88mm KwK 43 (1000 m/sec vs 975 m/sec).

What does ANY of this have to do with "certain nations' aptitudes for developing high velocity cannons"?

The reasons that US tanks did not routinely carry that gun were purely doctrinal and logistical, not technical. In other words... it was the result of a deliberate CHOICE, not the result of incapacity, or some mysterious and mystical German "uber-gun" design ability.

US tanks had to be transported across an ocean and then be unloaded by dock-side cranes. They had to be serviced and maintained in the field, thousands of miles from the factories that made them. They could NOT be sent home for major repairs. A decision was made to restrict the size of the gun... which in turn allows narrower turret rings, easier transport and unloading, lower recoil forces and therefore easier maintenance and less down-time.

My point, though is this... it was the result of a deliberate choice (right or wrong). In HOI-3, the US player is not required to make the same choice. He can, instead, research 90mm guns and sloped armor, and build Tanks with performance characteristics similar to Panthers or Tigers.

Where does "Race" come into this equation?

Man Emu, you have been on a role today havn't you?

I keep finding myself agreeing with you time and time again! :rofl:
 

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daemonofdecay said:
Man Emu, you have been on a role today havn't you?

I keep finding myself agreeing with you time and time again! :rofl:
Hover your mouse-pointer over the little icon just underneath my avatar-flag. ;)
 

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blue emu said:
... but Shermans and Panthers (or JagdPanthers) will be nowhere near each other on the HOI-3 tech tree. When you call them "the same"... you are thinking of HOI-2, not HOI-3.

Let's reverse the roles:

Picture a Division of German Mk-IVs (which are roughly equivalent in HOI-3 techs to the Sherman... 75 mm high velocity gun, Welded or Cast Armor, similar Engine) approaching a forested hill where a bunch of US Pershing or Patton tanks lie concealed. These models are roughly equivalent (in HOI-3 terms) to the Panther or Jagdpanther... similar gun, armor, engine, etc.

well, tbh the allies fielded very few pershings in europe during ww2, I think the 9th armored div had some, and the 3rd had at least that one famous super pershing responsible for a king tiger kill. The reason was a logistical one for the allies. Transporting divisions with these heavier tanks in land wouldve been quite a daunting task. I dunno exactly how many pershings reached "yurop" in time, prolly under 150?

The more available firefly was of course an excellent tank against panthers and such. And the brits wouldve probably had their comets/ centurions coming. I dunno about that patton tank though, saw action first in Korea? The german equivalent should probably be something like leopard 1 with 105mm gun and long range night vision equipment or something like that atleast.

Hmm perhaps paradox should also focus a bit on the transport side of the game as well. Like they did in mod34, wasnt there a tech tree for transports as well? Frankly germans should have pretty poor techs in that area, though it might still add some more strategy to the game as you wouldnt just be able to zerg rush the enemy with 25 transports full of panzer divisions on steroids, rdy to rebase into a port taken by paras :rolleyes:


Well, my point is however mainly that I'd really like to see advanced anti-tank models actually deadly in their supposed role. This doesn't really happen that much in the current engine, AT being the most worthless crap in the game...

Hopefully the "problem" of brigades becomes somewhat fixed in hoi3 with divisions being customised from regiments, so that we wouldn't just have to be overrun by hoards of naked 1941 russian infantry, as the laws of binomial distribution proved them to be the best choice. :wacko:.

Perhaps im a bit idealistic but it would be awesome if you could even out the number advantage of the russians e.g. with these more reinforced divisions, in essence use the german IC output to compensate for the lesser manpower reserves. As the shrewd finnish commander aksel airo once said: quality beats quantity, up to a certain point :D
 
Last edited:

blue emu

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Laurwin said:
well, tbh the allies fielded very few pershings in europe during ww2, I think the 9th armored div had some, and the 3rd had at least that one famous super pershing responsible for a king tiger kill. The reason was a logistical one for the allies. Transporting divisions with these heavier tanks in land wouldve been quite a daunting task. I dunno exactly how many pershings reached "yurop" in time, prolly under 150?

The more available firefly was of course an excellent tank against panthers and such. And the brits wouldve probably had their comets/ centurions coming. I dunno about that patton tank though, saw action first in Korea?
My point, though, was that this state of affairs was the result of deliberate choices made by the US high command (General Marshall in particular)... not the result of some mystical German ability to make high velocity guns, or of American incapacity in that same technical area.

It was the result of a choice... and the US player in HOI-3 should NOT find himself shoehorned into making the same choice against his inclinations.
 
Aug 1, 2008
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mwiggins said:
Tech's and doctrines will probably take care of much of those differences, but would you really want everything to be hardcoded so the IJN always had the best torpedoes, the US torpedoes were always worthless for the first year or two of the war, the Germans always produced strong tanks with great guns that were hard to produce and broke down a lot, and the US always produced lighter tanks that were much easier to produce and were more reliable?

That seems like it would really limit the replayability of the game, and limit your strategic options. I love the idea of the tech tree allowing you to design different tanks and ships, as opposed to the bland mess we have now - but I don't see the point of limiting your choices to what the nations historically produced. I love Panzer General, but HoI isn't nearly the same game.

Mwiggins has a great point here. The beauty of HOI2 is that you can make almost anything happen as any nation. If you restrict the best tanks to only certain countries, i.e. Germany, France, U.S., Soviet Union, then you discourage other countries from building them. Same goes for every other piece of hardware. You basically guide each new player into a predetermined (even if it is historically accurate) course of research and production. Through ministers, leader availability, research, and doctrines this is already occuring, but not on an exclusionary basis.
 
Aug 1, 2008
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Laurwin said:
Perhaps im a bit idealistic but it would be awesome if you could even out the number advantage of the russians e.g. with these more reinforced divisions, in essence use the german IC output to compensate for the lesser manpower reserves. As the shrewd finnish commander aksel airo once said: quality beats quantity, up to a certain point :D

That would be nice...but the Russians had way more manpower AND way more industrial capacity than any other country in the world. Furthermore, towards the end of the war, they also fielded one of the most technologically advanced. Seems like your argument would work more for Russia than Germany.
 

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blue emu said:
Hover your mouse-pointer over the little icon just underneath my avatar-flag. ;)
what does Hoi2 beta member mean?
 

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Bullfrog said:
what does Hoi2 beta member mean?
Playtester. Only for HOI-2 patches, though... they won't be choosing playtesters for HOI-3 until several months from now.
 

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PlacidDragon said:
ahh, so the betatesters only test the patches, not the actual game before release ?
No, they test the game... but I was too late in joining the team. I only joined in time for the patch.

EDIT: but we should be talking about HOI-3, instead.