Request: Improve the chances of republics becoming electors

[thErgonomic]

Look I'm not asking that republics would be considered higher than monarchies or theocracies, but it is annoying that republics are basically ineligible for being granted the electorate. Since trying to gain it several times as Lübeck by eliminating electors through warefare, while having high opinion of Austria and Austria having a high opinion of me, being allied to them and having high diplomatic reputation and staying as a OPM. Every time after an elector has been eliminated Austria gave the elector title to a theocracy.

So I decided to test this by using console commands as Lübeck and Friesland.
I made sure that all the theocracies had terrible relations with Austria and that I had perfect ones.
Then I started elimination the theocratic electors one by one using the integrate command as Brandenburg.
Well it turns out that after I eliminated all but three non-elector theocracies I could be given the electorate.

So it seems that even though the AI emperor would love you and would hate all the other candidates if your are a republic it won't grant you the electorate. Maybe it's just me but it doesn't seem fair.

Edit: A bit more for the argument.

Of the original seven electors from 1257 till 1621 three were prince-bishops. They were imperial princes on secular matters and archbishops on spiritual matters, so they held both secular and spiritual authority. Archbishops were voted among the bishops of the congregation so they were almost as democratic as republics, which (in general) voted the leader from among the wealthy and powerful families of the republics and only the members of these families had the right to vote. In both cases only men of course had the right to vote. On the other hand the electorships didn't change until the Thirty Year War, when one was temporarily revoked and then stayed the same until the Napoleonic Wars so the really isn't a lot of historical president for to whom the electorships were granted.
So if a electorship would open up, why couldn't there be an argument that a wealthy or influental republic be chosen as an elector? The emperor did elevate the free cities into his protection, so that the nobility would have less power over the riches of the large cities and trade. Why not take a further step and elevate one of them above others. A prince-elector that does not answer to god or blood.

 

[Me_]

No. Electors have always been hereditary.

 

[thErgonomic]

No. Electors have always been hereditary.

Hereditary like in a theocracy where the heir is chosen from a group of candidates?

 

[TheGhostVII]

Hereditary like in a theocracy where the heir is chosen from a group of candidates?

There's not what hereditary means. It means you inherit it. Being elected as a successor isn't the same as inheriting the title.

 

[thErgonomic]

There's not what hereditary means. It means you inherit it. Being elected as a successor isn't the same as inheriting the title.

I know that, but it seems that Me_ was arguing that because a Republic doesn't determine its ruler by a hereditary bloodline this is why they should ineligible for the title of elector and my counter argument for that is that neither do the theocracies pass the title through a hereditary bloodline, but instead elect and heir from a group of candidates.
Where in my original post did I even give a hint that I thought that electors change when the previous Prince-Elector or Archbishop-Electors died.
And yes I know that historically there never was a Mayor-Elector but EUIV has, at least for me, been about historical streamlining.
My major problem with the current system is that if one wants to form Netherlands and wants to stay in the HRE one can't be a republic to do that. That means that Friesland can't stay in the HRE, but Brabant, Gelre, Holland and Utrecht can.
I'm not arguing that monarchies and theocracies shouldn't be preferred over republic. I'm arguing that the chance of becoming a elector as a republic should be unequal to near zero.

 

[thErgonomic]

@Trin Tragula (You wanted a tag.)
So I had a little conversation with Trin Tragula and he asked me to tag him and bump the thread.
Please post constructive critisism and opinions.

 

[cub298]

I know that, but it seems that Me_ was arguing that because a Republic doesn't determine its ruler by a hereditary bloodline this is why they should ineligible for the title of elector and my counter argument for that is that neither do the theocracies pass the title through a hereditary bloodline, but instead elect and heir from a group of candidates.
Where in my original post did I even give a hint that I thought that electors change when the previous Prince-Elector or Archbishop-Electors died.
And yes I know that historically there never was a Mayor-Elector but EUIV has, at least for me, been about historical streamlining.
My major problem with the current system is that if one wants to form Netherlands and wants to stay in the HRE one can't be a republic to do that. That means that Friesland can't stay in the HRE, but Brabant, Gelre, Holland and Utrecht can.
I'm not arguing that monarchies and theocracies shouldn't be preferred over republic. I'm arguing that the chance of becoming a elector as a republic should be unequal to near zero.

I say it could work, but the republic would only be an elector when a certain family in that republic would stay in charge. If that family would lose control, then the elector status could move on to another, more stable candidates like monarchs, or maybe another republic if it would work for a bit.

 

[thErgonomic]

I say it could work, but the republic would only be an elector when a certain family in that republic would stay in charge. If that family would lose control, then the elector status could move on to another, more stable candidates like monarchs, or maybe another republic if it would work for a bit.

If that same rule would be applied to monarchies then a monarchy would lose the electorship when the bloodline died out and when applied to theocracies they wouldn't probably survive but a single archbishop.

 

[grommile]

Given that the Golden Bull of 1356 also included other measures which were designed to strengthen the nobility at the expense of the cities, it seems perfectly reasonable that in-game, an AI emperor will (basically?) never offer an electorate to a republic.

 

[thErgonomic]

Given that the Golden Bull of 1356 also included other measures which were designed to strengthen the nobility at the expense of the cities, it seems perfectly reasonable that in-game, an AI emperor will (basically?) never offer an electorate to a republic.

It's true that the Golden Bull curtailed the power of the cities in expense of nobility by outlawing and disbanding the city alliances (Städtebünde) that had sprung up without the control of the emperor. But they were afterwards refounded with the blessing of the emperor. Thus these alliances were not eliminated they were simply regulated.
The document specifically says in the chapter 15: "Excepting alone those confederations and leagues which princes, cities and others are known to have formed among themselves for the sake of the general peace of the provinces and lands. Reserving these for our special declaration, we ordain that they shall remain in full vigour until we shall decide to ordain otherwise concerning them." which the Städtebünde were. Thus they continued to exist after the declaration of the Golden Bull of 1356, but most of them were reformed into leagues that were not a threat to the stability of the empire.
I after a quick read of the document couldn't find anything else that concerned cities.

My point is that the decree didn't exactly stomp on the liberty and power of the cities, but merely imposed regulations on them.

 

[DDRJake]

Electorship is essentially granted on a person, and as such it's desirable that the emperor would be hesitant about handing such a title to a republic. I doubt we will be changing it to be more republic friendly anytime soon.

And this is coming from myself who adores the republic government type.

 

[Me_]

Necro

 

[thErgonomic]

Electorship is essentially granted on a person, and as such it's desirable that the emperor would be hesitant about handing such a title to a republic. I doubt we will be changing it to be more republic friendly anytime soon.

And this is coming from myself who adores the republic government type.

But how does this criteria differ from the way that theocracies ellected their leaders?
In both cases the person is voted from a a group of people, by a bunch of privilaged individuals.

 

[Gratak]

But how does this criteria differ from the way that theocracies ellected their leaders?
In both cases the person is voted from a a group of people, by a bunch of privilaged individuals.

The theocratic part is different. The electors were historically separated into 3 ecclesiastical electors (archbishops of Trier, Cologne and Mainz) and 4 secular ones. The secular ones were bound to persons/families.