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riadach

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A recent attempt was made in development in order to reflect the high-kingship of Ireland, giving the title to its historical owners. However, it seems this has caused balance issues and as a result, has been abandoned.

The problem is, historically, the title did not often survive its holder. Indeed, the medieval Irish themselves attributed this to a number of curses, that of Eochaid Fledach and Diarmait mac Cerbaill.

What if, however, the matter was solved using succession laws. Currently, tanistry allows for all titles within a kingdom to pass onto a single heir. If a second kingdom title is held that may be decided by a different set of electors and given to a different heir from the first. This is different from the elective system, where within one kingdom, the highest title held is decided by elective and lower titles decided by a different elective system.

My suggestion for Tanistry would be to adopt the elective approach. The top tier title and the second tier title would use separate inheritance systems. If you were king of Ireland then, on the death, your lower titles may go to one heir and your the kingdom of Ireland title to another. That would mean that the high-kingship could very well pass around to different claimants.

I would also change the eligibility for Tanistry inheritance. Currently, only those of the same dynasty as the current holder are eligible to inherit. What if this was changed so members of the same dynasty and strong claimants to the title could both inherit the title on inheritance. This would allow a title, such as the high-kingship to spread to different dynasties. I would also rebalance elector preference to ensure minors are never selected as well as make them favour those with higher prestige.

After Brian Ború seized the High-Kingship from the Uí Néill, all provincial kings felt they now had a prerogative to hold the kingship. This could be reflected by an event in 1066 called kings of opposition, which allows every provincial Irish king a strong claim on the Irish kingship (it could also be represented as a decision). Thus the holder of the High-Kingship could easily lose his kingdom to war, factions and inheritance.

That's all well and good says you, but how to you ensure the break up of the kingdom after death?

A bit more complex. But if the heir of the top-tier title is different from the heir of the second tier title, similar to elective gavelkind, vassals of the higher title should be allowed to declare their independence on succession. Thus, if you don't ensure your immediate heir inherits your top title, there is a good chance the kingdom of Ireland will be reduced to a just a few candidates. This would prevent the imbalance but also encourage the player to craft the perfect heir to ensure the kingdom survives.

I think this could be a solution to the issue, if devs want to look at it again.
 
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riadach

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Simplified this a wee bit:

- Make it default for Irish characters of all levels
- Have voting penalties for greed, physical imperfection and cowardice (and benefits for generosity, charitable, beautiful and brave)
- Make it so that characters from outside the dynasty may be elected if they have a claim. But should non-dynastic members succeed only the upper title passes on and vassals get an event to become independent.
- make it that non-dynastic electors have a preference for non-dynastic candidates.
- This, as well as giving all provincial kings a claim (or a decision to claim) the Irish high-kingship post 1066 would allow you to represent the instability of the kingdom of Ireland while giving it to its historical holders.
- split the Uí Néill Noígiallaigh in earlier starts (i.e.pre 1066) into Clann Cholmáin (Kildare) Síl nAedo Sláine (Dublin) Cenel Conaill (Tyrconnell), Cenel Eoghain (Tyrone). That way the high kingdom could pass among them since all were claimants but not bring vassals.
-More claimant wars!!!
- Allow independence factions regardless of culture.

This would give a nice representation of the title but not effect others that use Tanistry such as Pictland/Scotland.
 
Last edited:

BeyondExpectation

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If Irish cultured rulers were to have an additional number attached to them, one which the base value is the character's prestige divided by age, but was improved fostering good relations other persons in the culture within the same duchy if counts, within the same kingdom if dukes ect. and worsened by fostering bad relations, effected the likelihood of such persons forming alliances and improved their army moral, and improved one's likelihood of being able to gain the High Kingship, how would you integrate it into your proposal?
 

Woifee

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What’s so special about medieval Ireland that it beeds its own mechanics? No offense but it’s small and of little consequence for medieval Europe.
 

Snow Crystal

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I would live flavour for each and every region, kingdom or empire. But mybe prioritize the major ones before the small.

It's not really the job of fans (of the game in general, or a particular spot) to prio what goes into the game though, that is the devs job. I think it's fine for everyone to make suggestions and ideas for what they like, irrelevant of it being the HRE or a tiny county in the middle of nowhere e.g a random minor peninsula in Greece with some weirdo pagans. Sure, a lot of suggestions won't be put in, but there is a chance for a dev going "You know what? That sounds kind of cool" and spend some hours on implementing it.

In this particular case, I think it is too much work unless we add some good way of naming titleholders (which we currently sort of lack).
 

Doctor Zoviet

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Or to put it another way: the folks who are ACTUALLY on charge of prioritizing development resources can do so, and the suggestion forum is a place for a) places that the devs may not have realized need work can be highlighted, b) fleshing out ideas so that they take less development time than if the development team worked on it from first principles (which allows smaller places to get some love, since the resource-to-result cost is lower for the devs) and c) allow third parties to give fresh ideas that the dev team might be too close to the code and development outlines to think of alone.

Our 'job' is to spitball shit at the wall to see what suckss. Their job is to take a spatula to the more interesting sticky stuff. So put down your makeshift spatula and start spitting.
 

El-Daddy

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It's not really the job of fans (of the game in general, or a particular spot) to prio what goes into the game though, that is the devs job. I think it's fine for everyone to make suggestions and ideas for what they like, irrelevant of it being the HRE or a tiny county in the middle of nowhere e.g a random minor peninsula in Greece with some weirdo pagans. Sure, a lot of suggestions won't be put in, but there is a chance for a dev going "You know what? That sounds kind of cool" and spend some hours on implementing it.

In this particular case, I think it is too much work unless we add some good way of naming titleholders (which we currently sort of lack).

To finally finish Ireland

- change the CoAs of the duchies to be very like the ones in EU4 - those ones are more accurate. The current duchy CoAs are mostly dynasty ones rather than the actual "duchy"
- give c_meath a unique CoA... currently it has the golden harp on blue, same as k_ireland, and that's fairly weird.
- Irish culture (at least) localisation for Westmeath (Íarmhí / Íarmide), and a few others.

That would be lovely :D There's a few dynasty and dynasty CoA changes that have been suggested in other threads and messages, but I'll leave it at that.
If you're finished-finished working on CK2, please direct us to the correct person to nag.. I mean suggest things to :D, and thank you!!
 

BeyondExpectation

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In this particular case, I think it is too much work unless we add some good way of naming titleholders (which we currently sort of lack).

I do not understand the bolded part.
Can you simplify that statement at all.

Are you proposing a separate system?

Yes, I am. The reasons for me speaking about it in such a confusing way will become clear eventually. To rephrase; landed Irish counts and up would have a new numerical value, somewhat similar to prestige but more uniquely Irish. Let's call it x. Duke's x would be based on a formula combining x with their vassals x. Having high x would convey several advantages, including increased chance to be elected high king.