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It's absurd how I as one of the consuls of Rome can appoint every single political position like they it's my personal cabinet. Instead, it should be be determined by elections. Which you as the player should be able to influence, of course, that's historical given the political climate of the late republic.
As it stands, the player simply just appoints the best character to each slot, sometimes making exceptions to keep the families happy. The Cursus Honorum would make the political and character-based mechanics of the game a lot more fun, interesting and historical. It really makes no sense how a random dude can just become Censor, Praetor or elected consul with no prior merit. Characters should have to climb the political ladder and garner popularity among the people. This would also add incentive to change into a dictatorship/monarchy outside of roleplay, as these government types had a lot more control over the government.
General weren't also possessed by immortal spirits with incredible amounts of information and foresight. It's a game, we take over some aspects, others are left simulated, others are implied as happening but not deemed worth simulating. There's no absurdity here.
EDIT: I'd also appreciate it if people would stop swallowing the myth that is the mos maiorum. I'm not as into the history as a passion as other people here, but I'm aware that Republican Rome did not have a single political system that lasted throughout its duration. It changed quite significantly, and I'd argue that for the majority of our time period oligarchic power politics dominated. No Cursus Honorum is formally defined until Lex Villia (and the informal version was circumvented when convenient *cough* Scipio Africanus *cough*) and elections that weren't overtly pressured held for, what 50 years max before Sulla? Which Republic and which Cursus Honorum are people talking about, because it never seems to be stated!
General weren't also possessed by immortal spirits with incredible amounts of information and foresight. It's a game, we take over some aspects, others are left simulated, others are implied as happening but not deemed worth simulating. There's no absurdity here.
EDIT: I'd also appreciate it if people would stop swallowing the myth that is the mos maiorum. I'm not as into the history as a passion as other people here, but I'm aware that Republican Rome did not have a single political system that lasted throughout its duration. It changed quite significantly, and I'd argue that for the majority of our time period oligarchic power politics dominated. No Cursus Honorum is formally defined until Lex Villia (and the informal version was circumvented when convenient *cough* Scipio Africanus *cough*) and elections that weren't overtly pressured held for, what 50 years max before Sulla? Which Republic and which Cursus Honorum are people talking about, because it never seems to be stated!
"It's a game" is always a redundant thing to say. We are giving suggestions always knowing it's a game. That's why we are having opinions of how deep something gets represented.
It's absurd how I as one of the consuls of Rome can appoint every single political position like they it's my personal cabinet. Instead, it should be be determined by elections. Which you as the player should be able to influence, of course, that's historical given the political climate of the late republic.
As it stands, the player simply just appoints the best character to each slot, sometimes making exceptions to keep the families happy. The Cursus Honorum would make the political and character-based mechanics of the game a lot more fun, interesting and historical. It really makes no sense how a random dude can just become Censor, Praetor or elected consul with no prior merit. Characters should have to climb the political ladder and garner popularity among the people. This would also add incentive to change into a dictatorship/monarchy outside of roleplay, as these government types had a lot more control over the government.
@Bovrick I would like to see a Cursus Honorum, but of course adequate to the game - so not a 100% historical accurate simulation like office durations and many other details (you would have a too high number of offices for the frame of the game, and so on). But a somewhat detailed abstraction of the Cursus Honorum would be fine - at least a special one for Rome and a more "generic" one for other republics (plus minor differences between republic sub types).
Yeah each office at the moment is just a portrait with a modifier attached to it. 16 year olds can be given any one of those offices and there are infinite terms for them. I think a SPQR specific update is needed to really make playing Rome feel 'Roman'. Imperator Rome needs to feel more Roman. The flavour events are only good when they're in response to roman like mechanics but at the moment they just feel like they pop out of thin air like the 'arrange marriage' scheme spawns a spouse.
I think before any tribal/ eastern DLC they should do an SPQR Overhaul with the cursus honorum (automated election process), Socii mechanics (subject rework) overhauled families (discard scorned families and giving 'jobs'), overhauled holdings to better represent latifundia and aristocratic estates. This could work well with a government rework.
Player control should be over government type/ election laws but the game should have an inbuilt election process that elects officials based on age/ statesmanship, family prestige and merit.
"It's a game" is always a redundant thing to say. We are giving suggestions always knowing it's a game. That's why we are having opinions of how deep something gets represented.
I was responding directly to the melodrama in the OP, hence stating that it isn't absurd.
You can ask for it all you like - the one prerequisite I'd have is that I'd like to hear what the compensation for the player is. The proposal is to remove a gameplay element, but still waste computer resources on calculating a bunch of things we can't influence. Unless you're telling me what it is I, a player of a game, am doing instead, there's no suggestion. Just someone whinging that a game isn't as close to reality as they want, and whinging in a manner that was not addressing that it is a game.
I wholeheartedly agree. The Senate should have its own will when playing a mechanic, and the player should have to influence the Senate in order to make it do whatever they want - and that includes appointing governors, generals, and minor offices. I'd even be open to having the different senatorial factions give the player quest to earn their loyalty (construct a certain type of building in territory A, go to war with nation B, or get access to trade good C in city D, etc), and the stronger the faction, the worse the consequences of not completing their quests.
I hear what your saying but I dont know, having to try and influence every election could get tedious. And getting to appoint those guys is where you interact and get to know certain characters in your country as you search for a good person to appoint.
It's a interesting thought but not sure to be honest.
The corsus honorum as we know of it, did not take place until sulla. But I do agree we need something like this to help or at least elected offices for all of them.
It's absurd how I as one of the consuls of Rome can appoint every single political position like they it's my personal cabinet. Instead, it should be be determined by elections. Which you as the player should be able to influence, of course, that's historical given the political climate of the late republic.
As it stands, the player simply just appoints the best character to each slot, sometimes making exceptions to keep the families happy. The Cursus Honorum would make the political and character-based mechanics of the game a lot more fun, interesting and historical. It really makes no sense how a random dude can just become Censor, Praetor or elected consul with no prior merit. Characters should have to climb the political ladder and garner popularity among the people. This would also add incentive to change into a dictatorship/monarchy outside of roleplay, as these government types had a lot more control over the government.
This point was raised back when the game was released, and was similarly completely ignored by the devs back then, and then everyone who even dared suggest a republic rework was trampled on and bashed by butthurt fanboys and raging map painters.
It makes no sense that republics have you can appoint anyone anywhere without any checks. It may make sense for authoritarian oligarchies or noble-led republics like Carthage, but not elsewhere. Heck the the weak Senate in this game doesn't even have a say in who you can appoint where. Isn't that the point of republican assemblies in real life?
EVEN THE OLD EU-ROME, a decade old game, had more features in this regard. It had an office rotation system based on events - the senate would routinely present canditates for political offices AND general/admiral positions. They would even replace office holders as time went on.
Here are a few quick examples:
Every character expected to hold office for at least some time. After that, you often got an event where another character would run for that office and have a chance to gain it (via event). This would create a better balance as most characters participated in politics, governance and military one way or another, not just the ones appointed by player.
Loyal friends of the elected ruler or party leader could even call in favours, letting them gain offices.
A few quick examples, respectively:
A major point with that system - PLAYER AGENCY WAS NOT REDUCED. The player could still veto any senate recommendations and appoint their own characters at will. At the cost of maybe angering a few characters and parties a bit, of course.
"Player control" is what the metagamers cried about two years ago whenever people suggested automatic appointments, but the older system was much more robust than the current one and STILL allowed player agency and control. Especially with mods.
So that's another missing feature from the game. Immersion goes down the drain when you can just do anything you want in a supposed democracy with zero counter features whatsoever.
I still hope there will at least be proper republics in the game one day, not "monarchies with even less features" as they stand right now. It makes playing Rome or Greek cities so unimmersive, and lets not even mention the democracy of Athens. There are no unique government types unlike other Paradox games here (to allow for a Roman Cursus Honorum or Athenian Boule or Spartan Diarchy), and they are really needed here.
Imperator CAN have that feature, in a much better way in fact.
What we need, in essence-
- automatic republic appointments for every post, from generals/admirals/tribunes to governors and all the ministers with every new election
- basing that automatic appointment on realistic factors, like the "political influence" a character already commands, their friends, wealth and other stats
- automatic republic replacements of previous appointments on a regular basis, during elections or when someone dies
- ability to veto and still manually appoint people as usual, but at some hefty costs (and tyranny)
- senate blocking manual appointments if the consul/archon/whatever is politically unpopular, lacks support and is weak
- MORE OFFICES (because just 8 are a bit too few compared to what existed in real ancient republics, and one of them is an ahistorical doctor)
- unlock character and family management features that are unnecessarily restricted in republics, like most mods have already done
- UNIQUE government types - so a Cursus Honorum or Boule can be created, with proper age limits and re-run restrictions
We really need a major republic rework (alongside character rework). Government function is a big part of the game, both in meta and in immersion.
@Will Steel this sort of post is actually constructive, so thank you. I guess you can have the characters select from within their ranks who would and then some event-window (of a month or whatever) in which the player can intercede, otherwise the Character game basically runs itself.
Of course, it is absurd in these republics that elected officials can be vetoed by some spirit of the nation/selecting its own character instead
I'd be a little wary of inflating the number of offices, and the increase in the number of characters you need floating around to keep some liquidity there, unless it was restrained to a smaller number of government forms. I guess it depends on what they actually do, we currently have quite a few redundant (for gameplay) offices already.
I think having just 8 positions and 4 researchers to assign as jobs would be a subsystem of the Scorned Family system. With simulated elections and appointments, we are able to have a whole lot more jobs on each government.
But then we'll need to think about balancing Monarchies and Republics.
The corsus honorum as we know of it, did not take place until sulla. But I do agree we need something like this to help or at least elected offices for all of them.
Yes you're right, but for the sake of simplicity, familiarity and fun I think its the easiest model to portray and base the roman political system off of.
I think the 'automated' election process I'm advocating for should be the AI's rules. The player could aim to manipulate the election process to bring about a Marius/ Caesar scenario (young populist potentially aiming for dictatorship). The 'senate approval' as a substitute for monarchy legitimacy needs to actually be replaced with Republican legitimacy and Senate approval belongs only in the government tab.
I think key areas that need addressing are holdings, powerbase and family prestige. One of the key issues is this mapmode:
For Rome in particular, this holding map mode should be remodelled as the Estates map mode. In ancient Rome optimates/populist divide was largely around land ownership. This map mode should have character portraits on the map and a large optimates leaning modifier for characters in possession of a holding. Appointing holdings in Italia should despite increasing a characters powerbase, make the optimates leaning character more loyal. Sulla, Pompey were all staunch optimates and advocated for the Senate, despite their powerbases. The simulated elections could strongly favour these characters, as they could all finance their manoeuvring through the Senate. In the screenshot a populist character is a holding owner, but for the sake of gameplay I don't think a rich landowner would want to break the status quo. Caesar was a patrician and Marius a privileged equestrian and I'm aware they were born into some wealth, but for the sake of simplified and good gameplay I think this should be the dividing line.
In opposition to this the Tribunis Plebis should be given a stronger role. So that politics for the Roman player it would be important to refer to this holding map mode to overlook the key Optimates characters and the Tribune's relations with them, is he a pawn of the Optimates despite being a pleb, or he a true populist like The Gracchi? A strong willed tribune will prohibit holdings from being granted, but this will create an agenda for the opimates 'remove tribune'. This will also make actions difficult unless concessions are made to a volatile Tribunis Plebis (one being granting a populist an office or governorship). The more holdings that are granted the more difficult the Tribune becomes (modifer being '-1 loyalty per holding in Italia given'). They're should be a sort of 'demesne' limit to how many holdings a family can hold. (not advocating for CK2 here just a better way of restricting and roleplaying the characters). It would be nice to actually feel more of a presence and continuity from characters and their families on the map rather than just belong solely in the 'character tab' and switching them in and out of jobs.
For this to really work, Governorships outside Italia then need to be given a stronger role and tighter regulations over who is eligible to receive them. Past consuls should be the only eligible candidates and holding a governor position should be about raising family prestige and finances as well as holding Imperium. Being a governor should prohibit the AI from electing the character as consul (hopefully this will stop aging characters from continuously running for consul, the player could manipulate this). The early game therefore should less likely to result in civil wars as the majority of land is in Italia and Magna Graecia and dominated by Optimates who love the system. Generally populist proconsuls will desire governorships outside Italia away from the condescending Optimates (Caesar; "I'd rather be first in a Gallic village than second in Rome"). Expansive empires then become a problem, not in reverse as it is now.
The poor relationship between the Tribunis Plebis and the Optimates in Italia/Magna Graecia combined with the powerbase of Populist governorships abroad would then be the new trigger for civil wars. Holdings abroad would only be allowed to be granted after a region has been sufficiently pacified (happy population/ 20% Roman pops/ integrated culture/ colony), so the majority of powerbase comes from the governorship position.
The corsus honorum as we know of it, did not take place until sulla. But I do agree we need something like this to help or at least elected offices for all of them.
I think having just 8 positions and 4 researchers to assign as jobs would be a subsystem of the Scorned Family system. With simulated elections and appointments, we are able to have a whole lot more jobs on each government.
But then we'll need to think about balancing Monarchies and Republics.
Researchers could also have political flavour titles (like they did in old EU Rome) instead of just being called "researchers". That way they're also representing an "office" in flavour and function.
In fact, Researchers can easily represent Quaestors - the lower level politicians - in the Roman Cursus Honorum.
Now, historically there were LOTS of officers on every level of Rome. Like there were 16 Praetors, for example. We obviously don't need that many - just get 1-2 men to represent their entire collective, and add a few fictional ones to round out the number of offices.
That's what the game is already doing in most cases.
How does that translate into number of offices? Let's see an example, in order of lower to higher offices -
- Junior Tribunes (represented by generals, admirals and now actual in-game tribunes in the upcoming patch, so no need to count them)
- Tribune of the Plebs (historically represented plebs, with a special and very powerful veto power, and ability to hold plebiscites)
- Tribune of the Army (already in game as a fictional senatorial officer affecting troop discipline, but feels appropriate so lets keep it with expanded powers and let it represent non-field military staff office)
- 4 Quaestors (the in-game researchers, historically executive managers, for almost everything but especially for money and resources, its the basic career starter position)
- 2 Aediles (Plebian and Curule, historically holders of celebrations and games, administrators and trade/market overseers along with many more powers)
- 2 Praetors (Urbanus and Peregrinus, historically judges, military powerholders and major leaders with ability to run for governorships)
- 2 Consuls (already in the game, they're the rulers themselves)
- 2 Censors (historically the prestigious overseers)
- Pro-magistrates like Proconsuls, Propraetors, Proquaestors and so on (historically provincial officers, don't exist in game, already represented by the governor).
- 1 Pontifex (historically the high priest of Rome, give him all the religious things and he should represent the entire College of Pontiffs in the game) - 1 Augur (historically the other priest, give him all the powers about omen and stuff and let him represent the entire College of Augurs)
- The doctor
- Add another optional/fictional office that affects navies and represents naval staff (like a Tribune of the Navy), or maybe something else because not all republics have navies.
Now count only the relevant "minister" offices, i.e. the ones found in government window.
That essentially brings us to 12 "minister" offices for a basic Cursus Honorum in the game, just 4 more than vanilla.
And this is how it can be put into action:
- Give actual Quaestor titles to researchers, instead of calling them researchers
- Make them regularly elected office, just like with every other minister
- Rearrange the government window UI
- Add appropriate age limits
- Make characters move in a line upwards from Tribune/Quaestor to Censor. That's what it is - a Cursus Honorum - a ladder of power. Don't elect 16 year old freshmen into Consulship. Unless they are some powerful kid named "Gaius Octavius" *hint* *hint*
- Give them actual powers (like Urbanus Praetor able to judge or acquit people, or Peregrinus Praetor affect diplomacy, a rival Plebian Tribune able to veto your actions, Censors imposing corruption sanctions on characters and so on)
- Make everything function like I mentioned in my earlier post, i.e. automatic elections with player veto and loads of factors, heavy improvement from both old EU Rome and the current Imperator system
- balance and bugtest
Viola, you now have a proper and functional Cursus Honorum.
I am also thinking of writing up an example for Athens - i.e. direct democracy with only 12 ministers, but a lot of mechanics and features behind them.
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I personally prefer 16 offices, 4 for each character skill and tying with each of one another character skill. A 4x4=16 is the best in my opinion, and it can sufficiently represent anything on the map and even any fictional mod ideas. The current is only 2 offices per skill.
But then people would break their keyboards about "too many offices" or something (despite there is now a tribune system, and we NEED more families per nation in the game anyway), so cutting that by 1/4 might make them calm down.
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In other words 12 offices (4 more than current) is all you need to represent ancient republics reasonably in this game. Of course, they'll need to be mechanically fleshed out a heck lot more.
Looking at this post I came up with the idea of how the cursus honorum could be adapted to the game, this is what I came up with:
Basically the same political positions would continue to be represented in the form of a ladder, to access the next position several requirements should be met, for example, being of the appropriate age and belonging to the indicated social group.
The player could only assign Investigators, Legacies (if they come from important families or have served as tribune before), Tribunes, and "Governors" (Governors could only be selected from praetors, Censors, or Consuls that no longer have the assigned position ).
Elections
In reality, each position had elections but I think that at the gameplay level it would be a bit chaotic, so I think the ideal is that there were only one elections. In them the consuls and all political positions would be chosen. These elections would be chosen by the Senate, as is currently the case and the player could pressure or favor a character to rise to the next level.
*The propretor and the proconsul is simply the figure of the governor but with another name, it all depends on what his old position was
This is a very basic idea, with many flaws and very abstract, so before thinking about this I wanted to see if the community would welcome it or just prefer something better.
Feel free to contribute your opinions or use this idea to expand yours.
Basically the same political positions would continue to be represented in the form of a ladder, to access the next position several requirements should be met, for example, being of the appropriate age and belonging to the indicated social group.
The player could only assign Investigators, Legacies (if they come from important families or have served as tribune before), Tribunes, and "Governors" (Governors could only be selected from praetors, Censors, or Consuls that no longer have the assigned position ).
Elections
In reality, each position had elections but I think that at the gameplay level it would be a bit chaotic, so I think the ideal is that there were only one elections. In them the consuls and all political positions would be chosen. These elections would be chosen by the Senate, as is currently the case and the player could pressure or favor a character to rise to the next level.
*The propretor and the proconsul is simply the figure of the governor but with another name, it all depends on what his old position was
This is a very basic idea, with many flaws and very abstract, so before thinking about this I wanted to see if the community would welcome it or just prefer something better.
Feel free to contribute your opinions or use this idea to expand yours.
It'd be nice since there's a section in some of the screenshots with the new UI where age is really highlighted.
It'll make 'building' careers kind of make more sense, and sort of curating characters and managing them more fun. (Plus it'll make using the favorites part of the outline more fun than simply tracking disloyal people) There's a ton of directions it can be taken, but I think your idea is great!
.png "Screenshot (31).png")
