Republican Spain is ridiculously underpowered

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Just because Franco was aided by the British it doesn't mean the idea that the actual republicans winning wouldn't have lead to cooperation.

Sure, and so suggesting that such a thing should exist in the democratic tree is probably a warranted response. I stand by saying that the reaction to quite an understandable discrepancy with obscenities and CRUISE CONTROL FOR INTERNET ARGUMENTS is a little overblown.


I mean what should really happen is the british should aid Franco and the republicans should get a big ol' Fuck You button unless they apologise and stop.

So, actually what you think should be there is not a similar foreign aid from the UK bonus like Franco gets, but the devastated Spanish Republic issuing an ultimatum to the UK? That seems even less considered. o_O
 
Sure, and so suggesting that such a thing should exist in the democratic tree is probably a warranted response. I stand by saying that the reaction to quite an understandable discrepancy with obscenities and CRUISE CONTROL FOR INTERNET ARGUMENTS is a little overblown.




So, actually what you think should be there is not a similar foreign aid from the UK bonus like Franco gets, but the devastated Spanish Republic issuing an ultimatum to the UK? That seems even less considered. o_O
I was not actually suggesting that Republican Spain should declare war on the UK. That would be insane and counterproductive. They actually already get this anyway, it's just that the UK doesn't help Francoist Spain in-game, so Republican Spain doesn't get a wargoal
 
Thanks for taking the time to read through the thread.

I'll join the choir of people complaining that the post-war Republican tree is super boring and short. Even though they historically lost and we can't know for sure what a democratic republican Spain would have done after the war, you could probably fairly extrapolate from the pre-war left-Republican government to see what kinds of programs they'd try to carry out (that they had to put on hold for the war or that CEDA tanked and never got back on track) if it was just a question of lack of ideas. I'd also love for the wartime Spanish Prime Ministers to get representation as, as stated earlier, Azana was sort of a non-entity figurehead.

Also since someone brought up the POUM path, I'll again question their portrayal in the tree and its events as militantly anti-Trotskyist. Especially the last focus they get "Against Trotskyism and Stalinism" which in a conversation about the effects of focuses being lacking or wrong is fair game imo. I know this is just a fun fantasy focus as a reward for winning but even still, it is very weird to me.

POUM never held Trotsky as a figure in any way analogous to Stalin. Nobody in POUM called for the destruction or opposition to Trotskyism as a tendency - Nin himself was still a believer in Permanent Revolution and the classification of the USSR as a degenerated workers' state down to the day he 'disappeared'. POUM even publicly invited Trotsky to come to Barcelona in '36 (now there's a crazy alt-history if you want it); incidentally Trotsky was interested but neither the Catalan government or anarchists had the power to give him a Visa and both pledged to block this from happening in any event. They mainly just disagreed on the tactics you could/should adopt to fight stalinism, whether it was okay to join the Popular Front government, and whether or not Trotsky was being too dogmatic and rigid in how he attempted to apply lessons from the USSR to Spain.

Just my two cents.
 
I totally agree that the current political / diplomatic system of the game is still too simple and needs a major rework among these changes, a sub-ideology system among many other changes.

There is a sub ideology system, but as far as I’m aware, the only change it makes is the text when you hover over the ruling party in the diplo screen.

Fun fact, Fascist Manchukuo is Rexist, the ideology of famed Belgian shouty man Leon Degrelle. I’m just gonna assume that was the closest ideology for what Puyi was rather than think Paradox believes Puyi was a secret Belgian Fascist out to subvert the Japanese and Chinese in preparation for a Belgian crusade.
 
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Thanks for taking the time to read through the thread.

I'll join the choir of people complaining that the post-war Republican tree is super boring and short. Even though they historically lost and we can't know for sure what a democratic republican Spain would have done after the war, you could probably fairly extrapolate from the pre-war left-Republican government to see what kinds of programs they'd try to carry out (that they had to put on hold for the war or that CEDA tanked and never got back on track) if it was just a question of lack of ideas. I'd also love for the wartime Spanish Prime Ministers to get representation as, as stated earlier, Azana was sort of a non-entity figurehead.

Also since someone brought up the POUM path, I'll again question their portrayal in the tree and its events as militantly anti-Trotskyist. Especially the last focus they get "Against Trotskyism and Stalinism" which in a conversation about the effects of focuses being lacking or wrong is fair game imo. I know this is just a fun fantasy focus as a reward for winning but even still, it is very weird to me.

POUM never held Trotsky as a figure in any way analogous to Stalin. Nobody in POUM called for the destruction or opposition to Trotskyism as a tendency - Nin himself was still a believer in Permanent Revolution and the classification of the USSR as a degenerated workers' state down to the day he 'disappeared'. POUM even publicly invited Trotsky to come to Barcelona in '36 (now there's a crazy alt-history if you want it); incidentally Trotsky was interested but neither the Catalan government or anarchists had the power to give him a Visa and both pledged to block this from happening in any event. They mainly just disagreed on the tactics you could/should adopt to fight stalinism, whether it was okay to join the Popular Front government, and whether or not Trotsky was being too dogmatic and rigid in how he attempted to apply lessons from the USSR to Spain.

Just my two cents.

Well said. I brought up these exact concerns myself in the developer diary on Spain back when it was revealed in September.

To be exact, POUM was formed as a merger of Spanish Trotskyists and 'Bukharinites', members of the former International Communist Opposition(Bukharin indeed had his own pseudo 4th International equivalent). For most of his period in opposition to the Soviet government, Stalin was actually not Trotsky's arch-enemy. Rather, he saw Bukharin as the most dangerous and counter-revolutionary figure in the Soviet government. He only retroactively revised this assessment after the Great Purge(which is after the game start, it should be mentioned).

The reason is that Bukharin(leader of the former Right Opposition) opposed forced collectivization and crash industrialization. History has ended up vindicating Bukharin's position that this would be disastrous, as indeed it was; but in Trotsky's eyes this was basically tantamount to liquidating the revolution and paving the way to the restoration of capitalism. Outside of this issue of Soviet domestic policy, most Trotskyists and Bukharinists held broadly similar political views internationally, so the regroupment of Spanish Trotskyists and Bukharinists should not be seen as particularly surprising. To them, the question of forced collectivization in the Soviet Union(which was already a fait accompli) was simply not worth splitting over if they broadly agreed in terms of political program.

They also disagreed with Trotsky on the Popular Front, which is pretty essential to the way things unfolded historically. Trotsky's position was that in joining the Popular Front, communists would be surrendering their political program to the "bourgeois" forces dominating the Popular Front, and would essentially be held hostage to it. As the May events were to prove, Trotsky was largely correct in predicting that the Popular Front would be disastrous to the independent communists.

It's also super puzzling to me as to why Andres Nin wasn't chosen as the leader of POUM in-game. I had never heard of Julian Gorkin until I saw his name in this game. Nin was the founder of POUM, a former secretary to Trotsky, and significant enough to have been selected as a minister for the regional Catalan government after the Civil War began.

I have a degree in history, and studying the minutiae of Soviet and Soviet related history is my particular hobby horse. I relish in talking about esoteric historical subjects like this.

Unfortunately, at this juncture it's far too late for any substantive changes like a revision of the POUM path or for the addition of Caballero, Negrin, and Prieto as leader options for Republican Spain. I wish that wasn't the case, but at this point the most we can realistically hope for is some more substantive changes to the balance in civil war recovery, factory bonuses, consumer goods bonuses, etc. This is the main barrier to actually fun gameplay; the rest, as fascinating as it is, is really just kind of fluff as far as the game is concerned.
 
other problem it's the post-war pacification with the republicans that not make sense, the nationals in the south of Spain hadn't popular backing apply the same for this provinces as the provinces of the maquis is an error IMO
 
other problem it's the post-war pacification with the republicans that not make sense, the nationals in the south of Spain hadn't popular backing apply the same for this provinces as the provinces of the maquis is an error IMO

I think that's fine. It really showcases the new occupation mechanics and is fairly accurate. IRL Franco committed many brutal crimes to pacify the population and actually some resistance movements continued to the late 40's or early 50's. It is a forbidden topic to get into on the forum, but I think it will suffice to say that Heinrich Himmler was invited to Spain in 1940 and he was appalled at the brutality of Franco.

For the Republicans, you are probably correct if you're saying they would have had a less tough time in reintegrating the population of Nationalist Territory.

From a gameplay standpoint though, losing those cores and having zero compliance cripples you even further economically. The solution is just to provide all Spanish political branches with a way of completely removing the civil war economic penalties, excavation decisions, and a little bump to factories from focuses and consumer goods bonuses.

In my opinion the Francoist and Falangist paths are balanced fine, the others need to be brought more into line with it.
 
The real expansion we all want to the focus tree is this
Owie Icon.png
 
Unfortunately, at this juncture it's far too late for any substantive changes like a revision of the POUM path or for the addition of Caballero, Negrin, and Prieto as leader options for Republican Spain. I wish that wasn't the case, but at this point the most we can realistically hope for is some more substantive changes to the balance in civil war recovery, factory bonuses, consumer goods bonuses, etc. This is the main barrier to actually fun gameplay; the rest, as fascinating as it is, is really just kind of fluff as far as the game is concerned.
I don't think fixing the POUM or minister stuff would actually be that hard or expensive outside of GFX for the leaders. As someone mentioned, you could just add a line to the relevant focuses changing the leader/Prime Minister and give them all some meaningful but minor effect, and as I suggested you could just change the localization and do some minor script changes for the relevant POUM focuses/events. The actual POUM focuses are mostly perfectly fine in effect.

But yea, the Democratic Republican tree being so sparse and them having something like 3 ministers tops is really disappointing and needs a fix even if only on purely play-ability reasons.
 
Does this poor Spain thing also apply to the Anarchists in the Popular Front path?

I believe so. There doesn't appear to be any way in the focus tree for the anarchists to remove the recovering from the civil war penalty aside from eating a 10% consumer goods penalty for five years.

I cannot verify this 100% though because I have not done a playthrough of them yet. It's in progress.

The anarchists have excavation decisions in which they are alone with in the popular front branch. Seems to be a big problem.
 
I believe so. There doesn't appear to be any way in the focus tree for the anarchists to remove the recovering from the civil war penalty aside from eating a 10% consumer goods penalty for five years.

IRC, you are able to remove it with "Communal Autarky" in the Anarchist branch.
 
IRC, you are able to remove it with "Communal Autarky" in the Anarchist branch.

Yes, you are right. I just confirmed this in an anarchist playthrough.

It appears to be the POUM path that has no way of removing the penalty aside from waiting five years, along with the Carlists, Stalinists, and democrats(unless this latter group expanded soviet aid).