Republican Spain is ridiculously underpowered

Republican Spain is ridiculously underpowered

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Iskulya

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Just for clarification here, I am talking about post-war Republican Spain.

I am by no means a power gamer. I consider my playstyle cautious and conservative, despite that, I was able to win the Civil War as the Republicans(Maintain the Second Republic path) in just four months. That's not what this thread is about.

What it's about is how gimped the Republicans are industrially compared to the Nationalists after the civil war. I will break down the differences between my two campaigns: In my Francoist campaign I won the Civil War in August of 1937. By the beginning of 1941 my total IC was over 100. This was in going heavy on CIC for a year or two, then building a combination of MIC and CIC, along with going heavy on agency upgrades. By the beginning of 1941 I had 3 well designed 20 width Medium armor templates, and another 3 ready by the time Barbarossa kicked off. I had chosen the autarky economic policy.

In comparison, as Republican Spain with the Oppose the Communists route, I had 33 total IC at the beginning of 1940. This was not having any agency at all and building nothing but CIC from the start of the campaign even before the civil war started. I have to say that wtih both campaigns, the post-war situation is largely the same, as Francoist Spain I ended the civil war with 12 CIC, and with Republican Spain this number was 13, so they are both largely beginning the post-war situation the same.

Even as Portugal I had a stronger industry during this timeframe. The experience is not fun at all. If punching yourself repeatedly in the face sounds up your alley, then you may enjoy the post-civil war Republican Spain campaign.

There's quite a lot of issues here, really. For one, Republicans start the war at 0 stability, have multiple spirits that provide ticking negative stability for two years, and have no focuses or spirits that actually provide an effective rebound from this negative level of stability.

Additionally, if you're staying Democratic you actually have ZERO way to eliminate the recovering from the civil war penalty(which provides 10% consumer goods among other penalties and lasts for five years). There is one focus, Engineering Advances, which reduces the penalty from 10% consumer goods to 7%, but that is all you can do and are saddled with this for years. On top of this, you only have one focus that provides factories, Preparing for the Next War, which gives you a measly 2 MIC.

Firstly, there's an issue here. You take a lot of nasty penalties from choosing to stay Democratic. I'd say that missing out on the Soviet aid focuses is enough of a punishment itself(more on that in a second), but for all this punishment is there any actual payoff at the end? There isn't. There is actually no bonus or reward of any kind, unless you consider being stuck with that 10% consumer good penalty for five years a reward.

On to the Soviet aid focuses. They're actually pretty darn weak. Reducing Lend-lease tension limit isn't actually that helpful because the AI only offers you aid when you have negative stockpiles. A good player lives within their means so that the combat effectiveness of their units is not impacted. Also, it seems silly that the Soviet Military Advisors spirit is removed at the end of the Civil War. The Republican tree is so draconian and stingy it really wouldn't hurt to make it permanent.

One pattern I notice with several Republican bonuses is that they provide you construction speed bonuses and temporary consumer good reductions during the war. This is actually completely useless because your stability is 0% causing your construction speed to tank, but this would not matter even if you had good stability because your CIC is too low to take advantage of any such bonus.

Even the Soviet recovery focuses are actually extremely underwhelming compared to the Nationalist autarky focuses. With "Provide for the People" focus you get a permanent -5% consumer goods. As the Nationalists, you can get a -10% consumer goods bonus that lasts for several years. On top of this, if you restore Alfonso XIII to the throne you get another -5% bonus until he dies. The Soviet aid focuses granting IC also give less than even the Francoist autarky focuses.

On a semi-related note, some things are weird and broken in the Republican Focus tree as well. The focus "Enlist the Carabineros" requires you to have Indalecio Prieto as an advisor, which makes little senes because it is Juan Negrin who founded the civil war Carabaneros. Speaking of that, the historical path which sees the communists eventually seizing control of the Republic prevents you from having Negrin as an advisor. This makes no sense because Negrin is the Prime Minister who invited the communists into the government in the first place. On top of this, this focus breaks the tree for the AI because the AI will not hire the advisor and is prevented from going through the tree.

It also must be mentioned that if you finish the war quickly as I did you are prevented from getting Soviet aid at all, even if you went Stalinist. This is just another problem to be added to the list here.

Another problem is the inexplicable fact that only the anarchist portion of the focus tree gives you access to resource excavation decisions. Nationalist Spain can get access to 24 steel, 8 aluminum, and 50-some tungsten through its excavation decisions, so this is yet another point that severely weakens Republican Spain(sans anarchist branch).

When the dev diary for Republican Spain was posted on thh forum, myself and several others realized a potential problem with it is that unlike the Nationalist tree, there was no alternative to Soviet Aid and being puppeted. And so it has come to pass that this has become a major problem for the tree, even if it was not incredibly underpowered compared to its Nationalist equivalent. It would seem to make sense to offer the Republicans even more powerful advantages if they come out of the Civil War as an intact democracy given the sacrifices that are made. As it turns out, you're just stuck as an incredibly weak country with a weaker industry than Portugal. I would have at least run the game to 1941 so as to have a more accurate comparison to my Nationalist Spain numbers, but frankly it just became too boring and the industrial buildup too slow to really have a fun or meaningful game. I

I definitely get the impression that the Nationalist and Republican trees were made by different people. The Nationalist tree, barring some bugs, is pretty well designed in my opinion. I believe the balance of the economy between post-war Nationalist Spain and Republican Spain should be the same or similar, not a 300% difference in total IC.

Unless the numbers here are tweaked pretty extensively, and some revisions made to the Republican tree, I can't really seem myself ever playing it again unless I'm going anarchist. Sorry for this large exposition, but frankly the Republican Spain tree has so many problems with it that it required this much text to give the full breadth and depth of the problems with it.

To end it off, I think the "Communists in Government" focus under the Maintaining the Second Republic branch needs to be changed. It gives you the same flag and leader as if you just went Stalinist, so from an immersion and roleplaying factor there is no reason to do it. In my opinion, it should change the name of the ruling party to the "Frente Popular" and place Juan Negrin as the leader, and retain the normal flag of Republican Spain. This is of course small beans compared to the huge problems in terms of gameplay, but I felt like it should be mentioned as well.

I encourage people who read this to play a game as Nationalist Spain, and then one as Republican Spain to really see how bad this situation is. Please add any thoughts or comments you have on how this situation could be solved.
 
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Marchael

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I've only played a Carlist Spain game and Democratic Republican Spain game this far and I noticed stark differences between their power levels, specifically post-SCW. I didn't want to go through the whole USSR puppet/aid branch and couldn't believe it when I saw that the only factories I would get from my tree would be 2 Military factories 3 focuses from the bottom.

You hit the nail on the head and I just can't fathom how they thought Republican Spain would rebuild after the war given how insignificant their tree is, how few factories they have or will gain through the tree and how expensive and lengthy re-coring states is. Not to mention since there's no way to mine for resources as Rep Spain, you'll need to trade away the few Civ factories you have for resources. I clicked the industry filter button on my focus tree and aside from transferring away your gold reserves there are only 2 industry-tagged focuses for Rep Spain, with nothing granting any Civ factories or infrastructure, just 2 MIC and some (meagre) bonuses.

What I found most funny/sad about the whole thing was how much more of an industrial power Portugal was, as they have a dedicated industry section of their tree that can be used no matter their ideology. I'm able to get more factories from my tree with the generic tree as Spain and it probably makes Spain stronger than their tree in La Résistance does.

While Spain's tree is huge overall, the path that you can take in a single gameplay is actual pretty limited and much smaller than many other trees. I'm not sure why they didn't just make exclusive political paths for each SCW route with shared industry/military/resource sections.
 
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currylambchop

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Republicans would be weakened after the war as their system would be on the verge of collapse. But I think if they can endure they should get a national spirit that slowly raises their stability.

There's quite a lot of issues here, really. For one, Republicans start the war at 0 stability, have multiple spirits that provide ticking negative stability for two years, and have no focuses or spirits that actually provide an effective rebound from this negative level of stability.

Additionally, if you're staying Democratic you actually have ZERO way to eliminate the recovering from the civil war penalty(which provides 10% consumer goods among other penalties and lasts for five years). There is one focus, Engineering Advances, which reduces the penalty from 10% consumer goods to 7%, but that is all you can do and are saddled with this for years. On top of this, you only have one focus that provides factories, Preparing for the Next War, which gives you a measly 2 MIC.
I feel like if they fix both these issues, it will be fine. No need to add industry focuses, but give them the ability to actually build. Definitely feels like an oversight, sort of like Estado Novo path Portugal before they added in more focuses. Maybe it's because the Nationalists won in real life so there was more basis to show their development in history, but at the very least the Republicans should have the ability to remove their debuffs, rather than being 'sick man of europe' for years.
 
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Iskulya

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Republicans would be weakened after the war as their system would be on the verge of collapse. But I think if they can endure they should get a national spirit that slowly raises their stability.



I feel like if they fix both these issues, it will be fine. No need to add industry focuses, but give them the ability to actually build. Definitely feels like an oversight, sort of like Estado Novo path Portugal before they added in more focuses. Maybe it's because the Nationalists won in real life so there was more basis to show their development in history, but at the very least the Republicans should have the ability to remove their debuffs, rather than being 'sick man of europe' for years.
It just seems like a weird design decision to force the Republicans to become a Soviet puppet to get any amount of industry from focuses. Why is it that the Nationalists can use autarky(economic self-reliance North Korea style) and conjure a bunch of factories out of thin air and huge consumer goods bonuses, but the Republicans can't? There just isn't consistency here, and it's coming at the expense of playability for the Republicans. That's basically my issue with it.

But for sure, the lack of prospect for resources decisions and the inability to actually get rid of the recovery national spirit are the largest issues. It also seems like Carlist Spain has no Prospect for Resources focus as well..

I've only played a Carlist Spain game and Democratic Republican Spain game this far and I noticed stark differences between their power levels, specifically post-SCW. I didn't want to go through the whole USSR puppet/aid branch and couldn't believe it when I saw that the only factories I would get from my tree would be 2 Military factories 3 focuses from the bottom.

You hit the nail on the head and I just can't fathom how they thought Republican Spain would rebuild after the war given how insignificant their tree is, how few factories they have or will gain through the tree and how expensive and lengthy re-coring states is. Not to mention since there's no way to mine for resources as Rep Spain, you'll need to trade away the few Civ factories you have for resources. I clicked the industry filter button on my focus tree and aside from transferring away your gold reserves there are only 2 industry-tagged focuses for Rep Spain, with nothing granting any Civ factories or infrastructure, just 2 MIC and some (meagre) bonuses.

What I found most funny/sad about the whole thing was how much more of an industrial power Portugal was, as they have a dedicated industry section of their tree that can be used no matter their ideology. I'm able to get more factories from my tree with the generic tree as Spain and it probably makes Spain stronger than their tree in La Résistance does.

While Spain's tree is huge overall, the path that you can take in a single gameplay is actual pretty limited and much smaller than many other trees. I'm not sure why they didn't just make exclusive political paths for each SCW route with shared industry/military/resource sections.
Completely agreed. It's weird and puzzling that there wasn't a shared economic section. At least with Nationalist Spain, there did seem to be a bit of working around with the potential for alternate history.. a bit. For example, it's weird locking joining the allies to the Francoist path because the Allies faction can be led by a fascist UK where it makes sense for a National Syndicalist Spain to join. This seems to be a bit of growing problem with new focus trees: failure to account for crossovers with other alternate history trees. Something that makes me very nervous about a possible Soviet DLC.
 
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eonden

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Yeap, I made a thread about it regarding keeping pure democracy and how underpowered it was in the focus tree and how unfun it was as I had basically finished the focus tree by 1941:
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/spanish-focus-tree-keeping-democracy.1341397/

I also found out later on that you also have a very limited amount of ministers, to such a degree that you can cover all of your staff ministers because there is no options due to half of them being gone by "kicking the communists out"
 
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pdstanbridge

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Noticed this too. Complete disregard of anything industrial to aid republican Spain post war. The focus tree just stops and I’ve had to use the individual bonus section instead. I can sort of understand why they’ve gone down this route as the economy is crippled but You are forced into rebuilding manually whereas your neighbours get significant insta help with the focus tress
 
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Noticed this too. Complete disregard of anything industrial to aid republican Spain post war. The focus tree just stops and I’ve had to use the individual bonus section instead. I can sort of understand why they’ve gone down this route as the economy is crippled but You are forced into rebuilding manually whereas your neighbours get significant insta help with the focus tress
Its not only "rebuilding manually" its "rebuilding manually while you have your legs shot with a debuff for 4 years AND your base stability suck".
 
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j.margenat

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From a gamplay perspective:
- Fascist Spain should recieve aid from Germany.
- Comunist Spain should recieve aid from URSS.
- Democratic Spain should recieve aid from USA.
- Royalist Spain should not recieve aid as their main goal is to restablish the empire and that should be opposed by England, France, USA, URSS, etc...

From an alt-history perspective you get really low stability as the republic has suffered 2 violent uprisings, has changed their president almost every year and people is still polariced as you decided to not be fascist not communist, so no hard repression via NVKD/Gestapo. The USA is still in their isolationist policy and once they enter the war they will aid the allies and the soviets as they are fighting with their lend lease, while GB and France are busy building their war economy and confronting their own national crisis.

It is not wrong that the republic is in shambles what it is wrong is how overpowered are the other paths considering that Spain is recovering from a civil war that may turn into a 4 way civil war.
 

currylambchop

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It just seems like a weird design decision to force the Republicans to become a Soviet puppet to get any amount of industry from focuses. Why is it that the Nationalists can use autarky(economic self-reliance North Korea style) and conjure a bunch of factories out of thin air and huge consumer goods bonuses, but the Republicans can't? There just isn't consistency here, and it's coming at the expense of playability for the Republicans. That's basically my issue with it.
Republicans don't really have the same authoritarian power as the other branches so they can't push forward the same sweeping industry reforms that the other branches can. But I think instead of focuses straight-up giving industry, they should have buffs to represent the republic becoming stable and enduring, so they have 100% stability eventually.

Maybe an event after winning the civil war called 'the republic endures' that removes the negative stability spirits, and gives you +50% stability would work.
 

Bratyn

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Very useful criticism and feedback written in a constructive manner. Thank you!

On a semi-related note, some things are weird and broken in the Republican Focus tree as well. The focus "Enlist the Carabineros" requires you to have Indalecio Prieto as an advisor, which makes little senes because it is Juan Negrin who founded the civil war Carabaneros. Speaking of that, the historical path which sees the communists eventually seizing control of the Republic prevents you from having Negrin as an advisor. This makes no sense because Negrin is the Prime Minister who invited the communists into the government in the first place. On top of this, this focus breaks the tree for the AI because the AI will not hire the advisor and is prevented from going through the tree.
Indeed this was supposed to be Negrin. For some reason I mixed the two of them up, but I'll fix this :) I am not entirely sure what you meant by the remainder of this paragraph, though. Are you talking about the Stalinist path, or the Republican/Communist path, when you say "the historical path which sees the communists eventually seizing control". Which focus is it that is prevented by having Negrin as an advisor? Or do you mean you cannot have Negrin while also going down that path? In this case, we disagree on his personality. He did invite the communists to the government, but he at the same time did not want a predominantly communist government. Finally; which focus breaks the tree, and which advisor is not selected by the AI?

I'll look into the rest of your feedback as well.

I definitely get the impression that the Nationalist and Republican trees were made by different people. The Nationalist tree, barring some bugs, is pretty well designed in my opinion. I believe the balance of the economy between post-war Nationalist Spain and Republican Spain should be the same or similar, not a 300% difference in total IC.
They were both designed by me. The difference stems mostly from the fact that the Nationalist side has, obviously, much more information to go on for how things developed in the post-civil-war world. There isn't, for the Republicans.

I do want to point out some things: the Communist/Democratic Republicans are the only side on the Republican side who can completely rid themselves of the Recovering from the Civil War spirit other than letting it run its course. However, doing so requires foreign aid, just like the Nationalist ones do. This foreign aid is obtained via the Soviet Union.

That being said, I do agree that perhaps the balance is somewhat off, and a few parts need to be re-thought or re-balanced.
 
Last edited:

Bratyn

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To end it off, I think the "Communists in Government" focus under the Maintaining the Second Republic branch needs to be changed. It gives you the same flag and leader as if you just went Stalinist, so from an immersion and roleplaying factor there is no reason to do it. In my opinion, it should change the name of the ruling party to the "Frente Popular" and place Juan Negrin as the leader, and retain the normal flag of Republican Spain. This is of course small beans compared to the huge problems in terms of gameplay, but I felt like it should be mentioned as well.
No. You misunderstand the intent of the tree. The Communists in the Government focus is designed to allow a player who first went Democratic, but then expanded Soviet aid and became a puppet after the Civil War, to, rather than wage a war of Independence, be able to go fully Communist and become a loyal puppet/ally of the Soviet Union. This focus actually unlocks Red Bulwark in the West and allows you to continue further down the Stalinist branch as well. It is NOT intended to be a democratic/communist amalgam government; the description clearly states the focus represents the communists who already are in the government are seizing complete power.
 

Bratyn

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Also why Azaña is the leader of the PSOE in vanilla?
Because we have only one party per ideology, and the Spanish political situation is hard to represent as such. I selected the largest democratically-inclined political party to represent Democracy in Spain.
 

j.margenat

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Because we have only one party per ideology, and the Spanish political situation is hard to represent as such. I selected the largest democratically-inclined political party to represent Democracy in Spain.
Then the leader should be Largo Caballero and when the eleccions trigger change it to Frente Popular with Azaña.
 

Bratyn

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Then the leader should be Largo Caballero and when the eleccions trigger change it to Frente Popular with Azaña.
No. Caballero was never President. Frente Popular doesn't work because the whole concept of Popular Front is an alliance between very different ideologies - it's communists, anarchists, and democrats all banding together while still having their own ideological views; it's not all of these suddenly abandoning their principles and agreeing to democratic viewpoints.
 

eonden

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Very useful criticism and feedback written in a constructive manner. Thank you!
They were both designed by me. The difference stems mostly from the fact that the Nationalist side has, obviously, much more information to go on for how things developed in the post-civil-war world. There isn't, for the Republicans.

I do want to point out some things: the Communist/Democratic Republicans are the only side on the Republican side who can completely rid themselves of the Recovering from the Civil War spirit other than letting it run its course. However, doing so requires foreign aid, just like the Nationalist ones do. This foreign aid is obtained via the Soviet Union.

That being said, I do agree that perhaps the balance is somewhat off, and a few parts need to be re-thought or re-balanced.
Yes, the democracy -> soviet alliance (lets use this to differentiate with the other communist) branch is the one that actually allows to completely remove the debuff. However, as some other pointed out, the other trees also have several ways that offset some of the more negative effects of the debuff and might be more powerful than the slow and complete removal.
There is also the point of the democrazy -> no soviet alliance has no way to recover (outside of one of the three improvements to the "Civil war recovery" spirit that the soviet alliance also has access to) early or have any industrial / redevelopment program. The No Soviet Alliance part also doesnt have access to a lot of the ministers that are removed by kicking the communists out (such as the +5% research speed, and several of the military ones), so it is basically knee caping yourself.
 

Basileios Makedon

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The Azaña situation is fine imo. Having Alcalá-Zamora at start ( and have his replacement be a part of the civil war buildup ) would be fine but it is not very important.

Democratic Republican Spain is underpowered though, and they certainly could use some more economic focuses. For example, Prieto served as Public Works minister during the first republican biennium, having him as advisor after the war could unlock a "Continue the Public Works" branch that gives some infra, CIC, and the ability to get resources.
Just some thoughts
 

j.margenat

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No. Caballero was never President. Frente Popular doesn't work because the whole concept of Popular Front is an alliance between very different ideologies - it's communists, anarchists, and democrats all banding together while still having their own ideological views; it's not all of these suddenly abandoning their principles and agreeing to democratic viewpoints.
Then change the democratic to Izquierda Republicana as the PSOE never was the ruling party in Spain until the 80s. If you dont want to think hard about it just copy how other mods did it, you have a plenty of them like road to 56.
 

Faeelin

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Here's a question. If I'm France, why do I intervene in the Spanish Civil War at all?

The historical path sees them end up as a communist puppet/ally no matter what I do.