Republic Coastal CB Ridiculous

[Hyzhenhok]

Playing as the Count of Napoli in 1071, you'd think the primary threat would be the Normans, right? Or maybe the Muslims?

Nope. It's the Genoans. They get a free CB on your coastal counties, and guess what! Early Southern Italy is full of weak Duchies for a rich merchant republic to prey on. And every single county is coastal.

It's absurd and a-historical. It's bad enough with the Muslims running rampant in Southern Italy; now we have the merchant republics too? Please find a way to balance this. I would suggest giving them a free CB only on coastal city holdings, rather than the entire county. Or just exclude the Italian peninsula entirely.

The proliferation of easy CBs is starting to really mess up the balance of the game.

 

[glorioso2011]

The city holding idea is actually really good and seems a bit historical.

The merchant republics holding pseudo-trading posts all over the Med. seems pretty cool.

 

[tajerio]

I too agree that the city holding idea is better than a claim on the entire county. Frankly, it's very difficult to model the expansion and power of the Italian merchant republics without some kind of trade mechanic--that's one of the main reasons why I'd like to see Paradox make a decent trade mechanic as part of its continuing improvement efforts.

 

[Mixxer5]

City holding idea is good idea... But maybe it would be better to create Spheres of influence instead? Strongest country in region comes to help weaker ones. In exchange there's significant chance (if war goes bad for weak realm) for vassalizing this weak country.

 

[Lord Samuel]

I would suggest giving them a free CB only on coastal city holdings, rather than the entire county. Or just exclude the Italian peninsula entirely.

Yes, good idea. Wonder if it's feasible?

And additionally, maybe, add a technological level requirement. To prevent them from invading early in the game.

 

[Yxklyx]

The proliferation of easy CBs is starting to really mess up the balance of the game.

Hasn't this CB been in the game since the game came out?

 

[Lord Finnish]

I don't think I have ever seen a republic expand enough to become a major power. Genoans usually conquer one or two provinces off the coast and then someone (usually HRE) annexes them and turns them into a monarchy. Venice, I have never, ever seen expand through force.

 

[Ciccillo Rre]

I think the system is fair as it is at the moment. The way I see this is that the problem is that Genoa starts independent and with two counties. If it were either single-county or a vassal of the HRE at start (almost historical) it would not overrun Southern Italy. That would make Genoan expansion slower (I know it from modding-play experience).

 

[Ciccillo Rre]

I don't think I have ever seen a republic expand enough to become a major power. Genoans usually conquer one or two provinces off the coast and then someone (usually HRE) annexes them and turns them into a monarchy. Venice, I have never, ever seen expand through force.

Venice expands a lot whenever duchies and counties in the area (Veneto/Verona, Croatia) become independent.

 

[Wezqu]

I don't think I have ever seen a republic expand enough to become a major power. Genoans usually conquer one or two provinces off the coast and then someone (usually HRE) annexes them and turns them into a monarchy. Venice, I have never, ever seen expand through force.

In my recent game Venice has conquered big chunk of northern italy and almost whole northern part and eastern coast of Italy. So they do expand when they have good oportunities. HRE has had problems and haven't really expanded much gave Venice several golden oportunities to conquer land.

 

[unmerged(228153)]

Yes, the Coastal CB is indeed ridiculous, but strangely enough, nobody apart from Genoa ever (ab)uses it. I have never seen Venice or Pisa accomplish jack squat in 1.07; they just loiter about on their invincible island for the entire duration of the game. Genoa, however, always conquers half of Apulia within the first twenty years, then explodes into several independent republics, which are usually promptly annexed by the Muslims. Things were no doubt different in 1.06, when I would see Venice's aquamarine colours all along both shores of the Adriatic Sea. (Not that this is any better.)

I'd really love a DLC that focuses on trade and republics, too. As it stands, economy is a complete non-factor in CK2, just build cities on the coast and stuff them with harbors and villages. Maybe factions could play a role in economics as well?

 

[Trunting]

Yep thats true, the only way to survive as this counts to become a vassal of the Normans. Otherwise you will be cnquered by Genoa, which does that in EVERY game at the beginning. And have to say: Yes I like that CB.

 

[nyah]

Hasn't this CB been in the game since the game came out?

Certainly for a long time before 1.07.

I've seen both Venice and Genoa expand, and seen them both knocked back. No big deal.

 

[Westernesse]

I barely noticed this CB until 1.06 just because its hard for the republics to find smaller countries to eat up. I did have a game in 1.06 that I thought was really cool cause Genoa was starting to become a major power with 50+ holdings scattered around the Med.

 

[Hootieleece]

All of the City states abuse it in a 1066 start, but all of them eventually get eaten by the Major Blobs(HRE,Fatimids,or Byzies)eventually.In my current Game Venice took Apulia and Calabria from Sicily and somehow got Duchy of Spoleto and Treviso from HRE.

I am HRE Emperor and since I like nice neat dejure borders.I've only warred Venice for Spoleto and Treviso.I could take them out anytime i want,I just could care less.

Pisa owns more of the duchy of Sardinia than I do and Owns Genoa.Again I could beat them anytime I want and probably will in future.

As HRE Emperor I have good Income and personal Desmesne.(35 gold/month ,12K retinues and 10k personal levies.) I know I could get more income but I don't own Cities or have harsh taxes of any kind.(just normal on everything)

That is about what any of these "Merchant Republic's" can field even after becoming Kingdoms.

All of these OP CB's are only OP early in the game before the player has "Blobbed" himself.

 

[Beric Dondarion]

The AI literally can't fabricate claims as it's too stupid. I like the Coastal CB.

 

[Hyzhenhok]

I've played several Southern Italy games and I've never had the problem before, so I assumed the CB was new. Even if it's not new, something has changed for the worse. In earlier versions the Merchant Republics would only take land in Southern Italy when they reconquered it from Muslims via holy war.

Yep thats true, the only way to survive as this counts to become a vassal of the Normans. Otherwise you will be cnquered by Genoa, which does that in EVERY game at the beginning. And have to say: Yes I like that CB.

No. In my last attempt at the County of Naples I wasn't actually attacked by Genoa, but they happily ate the entirety of Apulia around me. I was allied to the Normans and there was nothing we could do.

Could those saying you like the CB actually express why you like it? I don't see any redeeming qualities at the moment. This CB is supposed to be used by Merchants Republics to beat up on the Byzantines, not to allow them to go on a Muslim-esque conquest spree in Southern Italy.

 

[Lord Finnish]

The AI literally can't fabricate claims as it's too stupid.

Really? I get those "they better not use it!" events all the time.
Thing is AI fabricates claims all the time but rarely presses them.

 

[Hyzhenhok]

Really? I get those "they better not use it!" events all the time.
Thing is AI fabricates claims all the time but rarely presses them.

The issue there is that while the AI knows to take advantage of a weak targets when it has a CB on them, it uses Fabricate Claims only on adjacent counties. If the AI had a much broader radius of potential Fabricate Claims counties and selected a target based on what would be easiest to take, playing small counties/duchies would be much more difficult.

 

[ZechsMerquise73]

The city holdings idea sounds very good.