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unmerged(81995)

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... is very limited.

The gravest design mistake. The grandfather of 4X games - MoM - was tactically even more boring than Warlock. Once you knew how to build and expand ONCE, the game was no challenge in this respect.

What kept it so interesting even after that point. One - the start in the alternate world, which was a hefty increase in challenge. Two - the near unlimited possibilities to create and use mages. 4 books in one mana era or 2 times 3 or 3 times 2? Alchemy or Archmage? The results REALLY were different. Especially the alchemy realm saw me creating and re-creating the ultimate items for heroes (with THIS equipment he will survive the attack of 2 worms in a sequence, right? Oh - wrong).

In Warlock after you mastered the game on impossible in single player? Anything left? Nothing, as fully perked and experienced elite or temple units are indestructable even by god avatars (I beat them without resorting to the surrounding trick, only exception is Lunords avatar).

Multiplayer is a workaround but no replacement for a multi-layered challenge or incentive to play again. Oh well, there goes another decent games to not be touched again any time soon ...

Regards,
Thorsten
 

GaryW

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To be honest, as much I like the game, you have a point. I think some sort of story/campaign mode would be a neat addition to the game. Perhaps to begin with in a patch but then maybe a DLC? I know they are probably developing this as a sandbox type game and improving the AI would improve the replay value. But this may work and add some variety to the game.
 

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This game is fun but without a campaign and a map editor it will ultimately go down as a minor footnote in the history of turn based fantasy strategy games which is sad because if it had those elements people would be playing it for years they way they play still various HOMM versions and AoW versions.
 

Modjo

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I think a great mod for this game would be like a Dante's Inferno mod, as described here - having (let's randomly pick 7) level of underground world, each populated by stronger monsters, where you have to battle your way deeper and deeper to defeat the hellmaster or some high level boss. The neat thing is that it would work great in multiplayer as well I think.

Anyway what do you think about that?
 

UncleJJ

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... is very limited.

The gravest design mistake. The grandfather of 4X games - MoM - was tactically even more boring than Warlock. Once you knew how to build and expand ONCE, the game was no challenge in this respect.

What kept it so interesting even after that point. One - the start in the alternate world, which was a hefty increase in challenge. Two - the near unlimited possibilities to create and use mages. 4 books in one mana era or 2 times 3 or 3 times 2? Alchemy or Archmage? The results REALLY were different. Especially the alchemy realm saw me creating and re-creating the ultimate items for heroes (with THIS equipment he will survive the attack of 2 worms in a sequence, right? Oh - wrong).

In Warlock after you mastered the game on impossible in single player? Anything left? Nothing, as fully perked and experienced elite or temple units are indestructable even by god avatars (I beat them without resorting to the surrounding trick, only exception is Lunords avatar).

Multiplayer is a workaround but no replacement for a multi-layered challenge or incentive to play again. Oh well, there goes another decent games to not be touched again any time soon ...

Regards,
Thorsten

I agree, MoM has more replay value at present but of course this game is still being developed. MoM allowed very stark choices to be made at the start of the game. It was much more magic orientated and the MoM magic system was much better designed than Warlock's. MoM's magic system was largely a steal from the card game Magic the Gathering with the same magic colours and the relationships between them and even some spell names.

To illustrate the hugely diffrerent sort of game MoM could produce here are just 3 very different options:

A) Pick Warlord, Alchemy and some magic books giving support spells and use the Klakon race. These are fast growing and production orientated, so spam cities and conquer neutrals and neighbours with the panzer divisions (Klakon Stag Beetles). This would play very much like a quick conquest victory in Warlock.

B) Pick 11 death books and select the Wraith spell and use Hobbit race. This is the undead Necromancy playstyle. Wraiths are super troops that can life steal and when they kill normal units these rise as undead units that have zero upkeep in gold, food or mana. Wraiths can conquer neutral cities on their own. This allows an Undead based economy to be built with high tax rates and low costs. Hobbit slingers are used to fight any tough battles against the other GMs aided by spells and any useful neutral or conquered troops.

C) Pick Runemaster and Alchemy and various other spell books and a magical race. This is a hero based game where super artifacts can be created and equipped. The key point is that artifacts can be produced for half the mana that can be gained by breaking them down, so large amounts of mana can be accumulated and used to generate insanely expensive and powerful artifacts. The properties available in the artifacts depend on the spell books chosen and any others found during the game. Two or three heroes equipped with super artifacts can beat any army and move insanely quickly everywhere. This would play a bit like strategy in Warlock that relied on getting early Temple units and using super troops to over power the GMs that can't deal effectively with them.

And there were many other ways to play and overpowered spells and strategies. Those 3 just occured to me to illustrate the wide range of options for shaping the game.

Unfortunately the magic system in Warlock just does not allow that sort diversity. The same spells are available to all GMs albeit in a random order. So eventually all GMs play very much the same despite the GM perks. The four races in Warlock do play differently but they are not as radically different as Klackons and Dark Elves are in MoM. They all have troops that fill similar roles, T1 combat, T1 shooter and so on.

It seems to me that the only solution to inject more replayability is to redesign the magical system to make it more like MoM's. Magic plays far too small a part in the game. MoM was a game built around a sophisticated magical system, the economy was awkward to manage and the 9 unit (max) tactical battles rapidly became a chore. Warlock is a game build around a well designed economy (easy to manage cities) and interesting fun tactical combat, but with magic added as an afterthought. It that which limits the replayability.

JJ
 

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One of the things that make me want to play a game again is being defeated. When I lose, I want to try again until I find a way of winning.

I think they will never be able to make an AI smart enough to challenge a good player, so one good thing to do would be implementing customizable teams. You should be able to be alone in one team and put as many AIs as you want on the other team. This way I could start playing against 3 Impossible AIs, and after each victory, I would increase the number of adversaries. It would be fun to discover how many AIs a player is capable of defeating.
 

unmerged(170187)

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the 9 unit (max) tactical battles rapidly became a chore.
Why do you think MoM combat was a chore?

Also you mention Krackin and Dark Elves lead to a really different play style. I don't recall them being a huge difference over the other races. The Perks and spell books had much greater impact on play style then the race. Though some races lead themselves well to curtain play styles.
 

player1 fanatic

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Let's see. In warlock replayability comes from choosing starting race. Sure you can get cities other races, but what you get and how much is also random. Then, what mercenary resources are around you near start of the game (I remember one of my human games, when core of my army where elves and halbedier mercs), as well as what perks you get at start of the game. It is different if you get rushing perks Mana Vault + summon spell, or something else.

All DLCs also improved this randomness, by adding Elves and Koalts, as well as adding heroes.

As for spells, due to random research, you are not locked by particular play style, and each game is different.
 

unmerged(170187)

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Given some time to reflect on it I don't think MoM had as many different play styles as some people think. Sure there was a lot of variety in Spells and Skills but the races were much like warlock in that some had a unit or production bonus you wanted to aid in that play style.

The play styles in MoM were pretty much as follows.
1) Pick perk & race that aid your economy and rapid expansion for quick conquest victory.
2) Pick perk & race that aid your mana production & research to go for Spell Mastery victory.
3) Pick lots of spell books in one line and summor OP unit to rush neutrals and other players.
4( Pick crafting perks and spells to make an army of OP hero units.

You'll note those are pretty much the 3 examples given for the variety of play styles only it was left hanging as if there were a ton more. Sure there were a ton of spells and perks to play with but in the end it was mostly doing the same thing only with a different unit. The wraith rush for example, I've heard of several different suggestions with several different summon unit types. They all ultimately rest on the concept of getting enough spell books in that magic line to get some summons that is uber strong for early game. The equip heroes to make the OP doesn't have much variety other then what spells you want to support you while you wait out for the economy.

Even though the number of play styles was limited the thing that help keep it feeling fresh was all those choices. So sure if you want to do the summon rush there were several different ones you could go with. Thus you could keep your normal play style without being forced to change it and get something unique. But even with the different choices for a curtain play style their were often best options which is what people tended to drift towards.
 

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I loved MoM back then, too.

But honestly I can't remember much^^ Anyway, here'S my two cents about the replay value concept:

Fo how many hours have you played warlock now? For many, I assume.. at least I did. Have I build every unit? Have I seen every thing there is to see, done everything there is to do? Probably yes. Is that what the normal player nowadays does? Probably not.
My point is, that guys like us are nerds when it comes to games (like this). We crawl into the system, analyzing the game mechanics, calculating the odds and what not. Even games like CiV lack enough complexity to keep us excited forever, since they can be "beaten" even on hardest difficulty with a single most efficient strategy (tarbanak's 4 city opening, anyone?).
I'm not saying warlock is as complexe as ciV or that it can't be improved substantially. I just want to point out that the replay value seems to be not that low and might even appeal way better the less "intense" gamers.

ps: pretty please keep improving the game, devs! its getting boring... ;)
 

UncleJJ

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It was much more magic orientated and the MoM magic system was much better designed than Warlock's. MoM's magic system was largely a steal from the card game Magic the Gathering with the same magic colours and the relationships between them and even some spell names.

I think my points become a bit clearer if I expand on this self quote.

In Warlock every GM can eventually research all the normal spells in the game or acquire them from looting monster dens. There are a few special spells that require the favour of a particular god to research and use, but these are often a small part of the overall spells available. This makes the magic system seem very similar in every game despite the random selection of spells available for research. Also in the late game even though increasingly more powerful spells are known and massive mana has been accumulated spell casting rate is severely limited to 1 or 2 GM spells per turn. Various units (e.g. mages) and some lords have their own special spells that can be cast for zero mana on a cooldown timer. Generally in the late game GM magic only provides a small boost to the tactical battles or the economy it doesn't affect the game in the same way that the availability of large amounts of gold does. In Warlock the key resource is gold and mana is a side show.

MoM has an entirely different "feel" magically. As I mentioned in the quote, the concepts behind the magical colours and spells was based on the MtG trading card game and like that game it is not possible to have access to all the most powerful magical spells of all colours. Indeed if you pick any Death spell books you cannot pick any Life spell books and vice-versa. If you want to access (gained by research, trading or monster loot) the most powerful rare and very rare spells of each colour you need to have a large number spell books in that colour and it's almost impossible to have very rare spells in more than 2 colours and they are not guaranteed in the research list unless you choose at least 6 books of a colour. Very rare spells are only available at all if you have 3 spell books in that colour. Picking a large number of spell books in one colour reduces the research costs and casting costs (and hence casting time) for all spells of that colour.

This much more restricted access to spells has a huge impact on the way the magical aspect of the game is played in MoM. Picking a large number of Blue (Sorcery) spellbooks and Sorcery Mastery is just not going to produce the same sort of game as having a large number of Green (Nature) spell books and some other retorts, even if the same starting race is selected. The green spells are radically different from the blue ones and have different effects in the various mana nodes, city growth and combat. It is not possible to have access to a lot of powerful blue spells and a lot of powerful green spells let alone red and white spells as well. Spell choice and combinations is severely limited by spell books and less than half the spells are available in any one game.

Warlock goes a small way towards this idea by starting with the favour of a god (or gaining it later on by quests and temples) but the bulk of the spells will still be from the general pool. Each God in Warlock has 8 spells and gaining enough favour with 1 god to cast its most powerful spells means access to a few of the spells (about 4 low level) from the 2 neighbouring gods on the chart. This adds about 16 "flavour" divine spells to the basic pool of about 50 arcane spells that are available in every game to all the Warlock GMs. Many of the divine spells are just improved versions of spells already available in the arcane spells so this small addition to diversity is often less than even these numbers seem to offer. All Warlock games could end with temple units with Vampire Weapons, Levitation and zooming around with Meta Teleportation :(

A huge difference between MoM and Warlock comes from the way spell casting is controlled. In MoM all spells have a casting cost and all GMs have a spell casting ability which determines how much mana can be spent per turn and this controls many small spells can be cast per turn or how many turns a large expensive spell takes to complete. A important part of the MoM gameplan is to increase your GM's spell casting power so he can cast bigger and better spells more often. This is primarilly what gives MoM its magical feel for me. If I want to play a magically based game this concept is central to the way I develop my cities, do my research and capture the nearby magical nodes.

GMs in MoM have two sorts of spell casting, global spell casting and casting spells in tactical battles. Some spells can only be cast globally, some only in tactical battles and a few can be cast in both situations. For those that don't know, MoM has a limited stacking with up to 9 units per tile and when one stack moves onto the same tile as an enemy stack a tactical battle occurs on a mini battle area. Both GMs (the one starting the combat and the defender) can cast spells to aid their units up to the limit of their spell casting ability as long as they have sufficient mana. There can be many tactical battles each turn (5 or 6 is not uncommon) and each is treated separately and the full spell casting is available in each. So for instance a GM with a spell casting ability of 100 can cast 3 or 4 combat spells up to a total of 100 mana in any of the tactical battles. And this could be simultaneous with casting a global spell creating an artifact that costs 700 mana which takes 7 turns to complete. Casting spells in a tactical battles is a parallel ability to casting global spells.

Spell casting heroes in MoM can cast the same spells as the GM using their own mana, which is free. Heroes can be equipped with artifacts that increase the amount of mana available and / or that increases the effectiveness of the spells. Artifacts can also have spell charges that can be cast for free. Any tactical battle can have any mixture of spell casting from the 2 GMs involved and any heroes present with each casting one spell per combat round per unit or GM.

This is a complete contrast to the spell casting in Warlock where the Global and tactical spells are combined into one ability and they interfere with each other. This makes Warlock a much poorer game tactically and strategically as far as magic is concerned. In MoM the use of magic can be the central part of your gameplan or you can choose to use it as merely a supporting role for a mainly military gameplan (see my Example A in the previous post), the classic Might versus Magic choice I love in fantasy games. In Warlock magic is always relegated to the supporting roles.

This is a long post, :rolleyes: but I hope I have shed a little more light onto what is a complex set of ideas that underly both great games. I'll end by repeating what said in my last post, the reason Warlock lacks replayability is the weakness of its magical system. It needs something closer to what MoM has to be more diverse in its game strategies.

JJ
 

unmerged(81995)

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This is a long post, :rolleyes: but I hope I have shed a little more light onto what is a complex set of ideas that underly both great games. I'll end by repeating what said in my last post, the reason Warlock lacks replayability is the weakness of its magical system. It needs something closer to what MoM has to be more diverse in its game strategies.JJ

Yep, thank you, pretty much sums it up.

Only things to add are
- that even the main perks (you choose for 11 points from a pool of abilities and spell books) made much more difference than they do in Warlock
and
- you could (for 3 lost ability points) start in the alternate world, which races and resources really WERE different

But I sign the main conclusion: MoM was a real choice between might and magic, after that to be quite drastically altered by ability picks and races. Warlock has just one basic choice - might. After that to be altered marginally by ability picks and races.

Regards,
Thorsten
 

unmerged(529460)

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I don't think lack of magical power, the ability to focus on either magic or might, or a lack of interesting complexity in the magic system is the really the problem. They're just examples of ways the game fails to offer enough features differentiating one play-through from another. There are some mechanics that help: Starting with a god's favor, the different races... And some rather easy house-rules can differentiate games even more. But, yes, it's still a far cry from the sort of variety MoM offered. But MoM isn't alone in providing interesting play-variations. CivIV's FFH does (certainly with the modmods), for example, and the differentiating features tend to be outside the magic system. Other examples: Starcraft. WH40K.

Expanding Warlock's magic system seems the most likely way to improve replay value for several reasons, and I'd welcome it. But it's not the only way.

If they did nothing more than make the AI challenging I'd be happy... but I suspect that's a lot harder than adding new content. Expanding the magic system in an interesting way will probably require significantly revising how it works. And as long as they're revising basic mechanics I hope they add more depth/differentiation to the cities and races.
 

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I have played this game from the day it was released so I can't say I miss anything when it comes to replay value. Then I don't play for winning the game, I play for the fun of it. I typically play on large/huge maps and as Humans. Perhaps I finish one out of ten games by winning. When I don't finish a game by winning I just stop playing when I don't think it's fun any more.

The end game is quite boring, to many cities to handle and to little excitement . The first part of the game is always fun; exploring new land, fighting Nature and Neutrals, fight back the first attacks from other Great Mages and taking the first Cites. Mid game, when you expand you empire, is also fun. Later when you have to conquer City after City it's usually not that fun, then I stop playing and start all over again.