Reorganized Nationalist China

[blackchoas]

Caught the stream, a lot of good stuff as usual.

I was wondering who the leader of China was after it was puppeted by Japan, because it didn't looked like it was Henry Pu Yi of the Qing Dynasty, Last Emperor of China, who served as a puppet ruler of China for the Japanese for decades during this time period.

And if it isn't him, why in the world isn't it?

 

[ELPhantomII]

Because Puyi was no longer Emperor of China as of the Xinhai Revolution in 1911. The Qing Dynasty was no longer the recognised legitimate entity of China. During the Japanese invasion, the leader of the Republic of China was generally recognised as Chiang Kai-shek. Puyi was Emperor of Manchukuo, the puppet state controlled by Japan, with the promise that he would be Emperor of China again. It didn't happen.

China was also never fully controlled by Japan.

 

[blackchoas]

Because Puyi was no longer Emperor of China as of the Xinhai Revolution in 1911. The Qing Dynasty was no longer the recognised legitimate entity of China. During the Japanese invasion, the leader of the Republic of China was generally recognised as Chiang Kai-shek. Puyi was Emperor of Manchukuo, the puppet state controlled by Japan, with the promise that he would be Emperor of China again. It didn't happen.

China was also never fully controlled by Japan.

so why would he not be the leader who is put in charge when Japan puppets China? That seems to be exactly what they were planning to do.

 

[AapoAlas]

so why would he not be the leader who is put in charge when Japan puppets China? That seems to be exactly what they were planning to do.

Likely because the Fascist leaning China can also be a not-puppet Fascist China. Imagine you start as Republic of China, make a Fascist takeover and end up with Puyi the "Emperor of Manchukuo" and then Japan invades you from Manchukuo. That would be quite the "what the dog" situation, wouldn't it?
Unfortunately or fortunately there currently exists no support from the game for a specific Japanese China-puppet.

 

[Porkman]

The leader of Japanese puppet China should be Wang Jing Wei, who actually led Japanese puppet China historically.

The Japanese nevver wanted Puyi to gain control outside of manchukuo. What they wanted was a China that was fragmented and beholden to Japan.

 

[Oriflamme]

so why would he not be the leader who is put in charge when Japan puppets China? That seems to be exactly what they were planning to do.

No...that was not what they were planning to do. In case you don't know, the Reorganized National Government of the Republic of China did actually exist, to some extent. The Japanese hoped to win over the people of the lands they occupied by presenting a "reorganized" Republic of China, with similar characteristics but completely prostrate before the Empire of Japan. One of the stipulations the new government agreed to was recognition of Manchukuo's independence. The Japanese never intended to return Manchukuo to China, so therefore they had no desire to return to the days of the Qing Dynasty.

 

[The_Meme_Man]

I would personally like to see a new tag for a restored Qing Empire if Manchukuo fights for it. I mean, Mr. Puyi was an ambitious man. All iterations of Chinese Republics should have no relation to the Manchu government, but the Manchu government still holds claimancy over the rest of China. But that will have to be for when and if they are able to get Manchukuo to exist. It would be nice to exist, but I wouldn't put it as a priority for the game developers.

Basically, if Manchukuo can rebel, win, and subdue the rest of China, I see no reason why the Qing Empire should not be allowed to reform. Now, what government they represent will be very hard to predict because they are an absolute monarchy, but in no ways fascist. Maybe it would be like the Japanese government and just be given Fascist support, but we are comparing an Emperor of China who barely trusted anyone with an Emperor of Japan who trusted most everyone. Makes me wonder what other imperial governments like the hinted Ottoman Empire will be like, though I think the Ottoman Empire is just based on being Fascist and having reconquered Greece and stuff.

 

[SchwarzKatze]

I would personally like to see a new tag for a restored Qing Empire if Manchukuo fights for it. I mean, Mr. Puyi was an ambitious man. All iterations of Chinese Republics should have no relation to the Manchu government, but the Manchu government still holds claimancy over the rest of China. But that will have to be for when and if they are able to get Manchukuo to exist. It would be nice to exist, but I wouldn't put it as a priority for the game developers.

Basically, if Manchukuo can rebel, win, and subdue the rest of China, I see no reason why the Qing Empire should not be allowed to reform. Now, what government they represent will be very hard to predict because they are an absolute monarchy, but in no ways fascist. Maybe it would be like the Japanese government and just be given Fascist support, but we are comparing an Emperor of China who barely trusted anyone with an Emperor of Japan who trusted most everyone. Makes me wonder what other imperial governments like the hinted Ottoman Empire will be like, though I think the Ottoman Empire is just based on being Fascist and having reconquered Greece and stuff.

Does Manchukuo even exist in the game? It didn't the last time I checked.

 

[blackchoas]

Does Manchukuo even exist in the game? It didn't the last time I checked.

it should at least have cores that can be liberated from Japan, one might argue that China shouldn't have cores on Manchuria at all at this point as many chinese rejected the idea that Manchuria was part of China

 

[potski]

Manchuria had been part of China for hundreds of years. And was illegally occupied by Japan only five years before the start date of the game. Most of the people who lived there were Chinese. It was and is China core territory.

It wasn't ever Japanese core, it was a colony IRL. And is a Japanese colony in the game.

 

[SchwarzKatze]

as many chinese rejected the idea that Manchuria was part of China

What?

 

[Hikuran]

it should at least have cores that can be liberated from Japan, one might argue that China shouldn't have cores on Manchuria at all at this point as many chinese rejected the idea that Manchuria was part of China

State your proof that many Chinese rejected the idea that Manchuria was part of China
Manchu has been part of China ever since Qing dynasty began and that's more than 3 hundred years ago.
I'm a Chinese and I can tell you that such idea is as ridiculous as Prussia not a part of Germany.

There is, however, a handful of Han Ultra-nationalists who claim that Qind Dynasty is not legitimate because of their Manchuria origin, but those guys are too few to make some noise. China, by all means, is a multi-ethnic country so any kind of ruling houses is accepted. Ming Emperor, which is Han by cultural origin, accepted the reign of Yuan, the Mongol one they overthrew, and put their names of their emperors in Sky Temple (a national shrine to worship ancestors in Chinese paganism)

 

[AapoAlas]

State your proof that many Chinese rejected the idea that Manchuria was part of China
Manchu has been part of China ever since Qing dynasty began and that's more than 3 hundred years ago.
I'm a Chinese and I can tell you that such idea is as ridiculous as Prussia not a part of Germany.

There is, however, a handful of Han Ultra-nationalists who claim that Qind Dynasty is not legitimate because of their Manchuria origin, but those guys are too few to make some noise. China, by all means, is a multi-ethnic country so any kind of ruling houses is accepted. Ming Emperor, which is Han by cultural origin, accepted the reign of Yuan, the Mongol one they overthrew, and put their names of their emperors in Sky Temple (a national shrine to worship ancestors in Chinese paganism)

It seems that at the beginning of the Republic of China era there were rather loud nationalist voices denouncing the Manchu people as foreign colonisers in the Republic movement, despite there being quite a few Manchu in the movement itself. This lessened with time but a lot of Manchu people chose to write themselves down as Han Chinese in official papers in order to escape any possible backlash on the Manchu after the Qing dynasty ended. This is partially affected Manchuria later becoming a staging ground for the PLA and only started to reverse when in the 1950's (I believe it was) the PROC officially accepted the Manchu people as a minority.

It is not clear to me how heavy the persecution of Manchu minorities in China was at the time: It is mentioned that in Manchuria under the warlord Zhang Zuolin the Manchu had had much better treatment than in Central China but a difference doesn't tell of actual levels. This does tell us, however, that some disgruntlement towards the Manchu people existed and even that to some nationalists of the time Manchuria could be considered "foreign" land.

Whether this can be construed as rejection of Manchuria being part of China or simply xenophobia and a nationalist slander of a past government is a matter of interpretation, I believe.

EDIT: Oh yeah, I'm no expert and this is all essentially just copied from Wikipedia.

 

[BMN]

State your proof that many Chinese rejected the idea that Manchuria was part of China
Manchu has been part of China ever since Qing dynasty began and that's more than 3 hundred years ago.
I'm a Chinese and I can tell you that such idea is as ridiculous as Prussia not a part of Germany.

There is, however, a handful of Han Ultra-nationalists who claim that Qind Dynasty is not legitimate because of their Manchuria origin, but those guys are too few to make some noise. China, by all means, is a multi-ethnic country so any kind of ruling houses is accepted. Ming Emperor, which is Han by cultural origin, accepted the reign of Yuan, the Mongol one they overthrew, and put their names of their emperors in Sky Temple (a national shrine to worship ancestors in Chinese paganism)

While I agree with what you mean, that's maybe not the best example. As it is, Prussia isn't a part of Germany. What's left of it is Russian, now. See Kaliningrad Oblast.

 

[Hikuran]

It seems that at the beginning of the Republic of China era there were rather loud nationalist voices denouncing the Manchu people as foreign colonisers in the Republic movement, despite there being quite a few Manchu in the movement itself. This lessened with time but a lot of Manchu people chose to write themselves down as Han Chinese in official papers in order to escape any possible backlash on the Manchu after the Qing dynasty ended. This is partially affected Manchuria later becoming a staging ground for the PLA and only started to reverse when in the 1950's (I believe it was) the PROC officially accepted the Manchu people as a minority.

It is not clear to me how heavy the persecution of Manchu minorities in China was at the time: It is mentioned that in Manchuria under the warlord Zhang Zuolin the Manchu had had much better treatment than in Central China but a difference doesn't tell of actual levels. This does tell us, however, that some disgruntlement towards the Manchu people existed and even that to some nationalists of the time Manchuria could be considered "foreign" land.

Whether this can be construed as rejection of Manchuria being part of China or simply xenophobia and a nationalist slander of a past government is a matter of interpretation, I believe.

EDIT: Oh yeah, I'm no expert and this is all essentially just copied from Wikipedia.

What you said or copied is true.
In RoC time or before the KMT took power, their slogan or catchwords was "Drive out the foreigners and Make China Chinese again" (a rough translate by me), they DID need the support of Han Nationalist to overthrow Qing at that time.

However before they could actually march to Beijing (named Beiping in game), Yuan Shikai, the Marshal of Qing New Standard Army, initiated a coup and force Qing Emperor to abdicate and gave all rights to him. Because of this Yuan himself was nominated the first President of Nationalist China and later he pronounce himself the first Emperor of Chinese Empire, though his reign as Emperor only lasted 80 days.

Since last Emperor was not overthrown but "willingly" abdicate, KMT changed their slogan from "Drive out the Foreigners" to "5 Nation under One Union (Han Manchu Mongols Tibetan and Hui[Chinese Muslim])", replacing their nationalism policy to a more tolerant one. The time was about 1911.

 

[Hikuran]

While I agree with what you mean, that's maybe not the best example. As it is, Prussia isn't a part of Germany. What's left of it is Russian, now. See Kaliningrad Oblast.

Yes indeed, Königsberg is now Калининград XD

 

[AapoAlas]

A 1903 widely circulated pamphlet by the name of The Revolutionary Army by Zou Rong called for the "annihilation of the five million and more of the furry and horned Manchu race." He also writes: "Unjust! Unjust! What is most unjust and bitter in China today is to have to put up with this inferior race of nomads with wolfish ambitions, these thievish Manchus, as our rulers."
In 1905 the leading revolutionary organisation Tongmenghui (Alliance) demanded the "expulsion of the Tartars", referring to the Manchu.

Seven main points against the Manchu seemed to be:

• They were alien, not "Chinese"
• They had been barbarous and heinous in their conquest and control over China.
• They had barbarised China with Manchu customs.
• They had set themselves up as a privileged minority.
• They had subjugated the Han in the manner of a foreign military occupation.
• They practiced political discrimination against the Hans.
• They were, on their end as well, fundamentally at odds and hostile with the Han people.

Until about 1905 or so the Han were forbidden from settling in Manchuria, effectively making it quite like a foreign country to the Han. When the restriction lifted Han Chinese from over-populated northern Chinese areas soon flooded in, perhaps how one would move into a colonial frontier.

From these I would infer that the Manchu were indeed quite disliked and at least once did I see a reference to slaughtering of Manchu people after the revolution with a mention that the revolution wasn't quite so bloodless as it is often portrayed as. No actual historical mentions were given at that point, however.

Still, I would wager to say that the status of Manchuria as Chinese core lands is quite disputed. The original populace was vilified by the Han, the lands themselves had been closed off for about 300 years as a colonial overlord's lands might be and the Republican revolution had relied heavily on the anti-Manchu sentiment. Such a reliance and sentiment can hardly be changed overnight by adopting a slogan of unification. It is very true that the loss of Manchuria to the invading Japanese forces were a source of anger and shame to the Chinese and resulted in resignations in the government for their incapability to resist or repulse the invaders. This, however, does not mean that the lands were considered a core area. In a similar vein military commanders and government officials have been held responsible for not holding the line in offensive wars turned defensive, the German invasion of Russia coming to mind first and foremost. The humiliation at not holding onto an area is not so much about the area but about the incapability to resist and win.

In short I would say that Manchuria is a complicated piece of land at the time.

Sources: Rhoads, E.J.: Manchus & Han - Ethnic Relations and Power in Late Qing and Early Republican China, 1861-1928; Wikipedia

 

[Hikuran]

A 1903 widely circulated pamphlet by the name of The Revolutionary Army by Zou Rong called for the "annihilation of the five million and more of the furry and horned Manchu race." He also writes: "Unjust! Unjust! What is most unjust and bitter in China today is to have to put up with this inferior race of nomads with wolfish ambitions, these thievish Manchus, as our rulers."
In 1905 the leading revolutionary organisation Tongmenghui (Alliance) demanded the "expulsion of the Tartars", referring to the Manchu.

Seven main points against the Manchu seemed to be:

• They were alien, not "Chinese"
• They had been barbarous and heinous in their conquest and control over China.
• They had barbarised China with Manchu customs.
• They had set themselves up as a privileged minority.
• They had subjugated the Han in the manner of a foreign military occupation.
• They practiced political discrimination against the Hans.
• They were, on their end as well, fundamentally at odds and hostile with the Han people.

Until about 1905 or so the Han were forbidden from settling in Manchuria, effectively making it quite like a foreign country to the Han. When the restriction lifted Han Chinese from over-populated northern Chinese areas soon flooded in, perhaps how one would move into a colonial frontier.

From these I would infer that the Manchu were indeed quite disliked and at least once did I see a reference to slaughtering of Manchu people after the revolution with a mention that the revolution wasn't quite so bloodless as it is often portrayed as. No actual historical mentions were given at that point, however.

Still, I would wager to say that the status of Manchuria as Chinese core lands is quite disputed. The original populace was vilified by the Han, the lands themselves had been closed off for about 300 years as a colonial overlord's lands might be and the Republican revolution had relied heavily on the anti-Manchu sentiment. Such a reliance and sentiment can hardly be changed overnight by adopting a slogan of unification. It is very true that the loss of Manchuria to the invading Japanese forces were a source of anger and shame to the Chinese and resulted in resignations in the government for their incapability to resist or repulse the invaders. This, however, does not mean that the lands were considered a core area. In a similar vein military commanders and government officials have been held responsible for not holding the line in offensive wars turned defensive, the German invasion of Russia coming to mind first and foremost. The humiliation at not holding onto an area is not so much about the area but about the incapability to resist and win.

In short I would say that Manchuria is a complicated piece of land at the time.

Sources: Rhoads, E.J.: Manchus & Han - Ethnic Relations and Power in Late Qing and Early Republican China, 1861-1928; Wikipedia

Well, it is true that some Han people disliked Manchurian after 300 years reign of injustice and forceful cultural conversion in China, not to mention the Qing government was responsible for losing quite a lot core lands like Hong Kong, Macau and Haishenwai (Владивосток, now a Russian city in fareast) since First Opium War in 1840.

Yet it does not support the theory you quoted above since before the Japanese Invasion the Manchuria was actually held by a Han Warlord Zhang Zuolin and with majority of its habitant being Han. Zhang, though with very high autonomy in his "own Kingdom“, still answered to Chiang's government. After his assassination by Japanese his son lost most of the privileges due to limited prestige and increased pressure from Japan-occupied Korea. Zhang Junior asked Chiang for help and was guaranteed, however was ordered to abandon his post after Japanese actually invaded in 1931 because RoC was busy dealing with Mao's Communist.
Manchuria was later made a Monarchy-Subject with Puyi Aisin Joro by Japan, after that we all know what happens.

So here is what happens in game, Manchuria is a highly-autonomous part of RoC, Japan invaded it and took it with ease and then make it a subject. I think we have very good reason to make it a core for All Chinese factions

 

[SchwarzKatze]

A 1903 widely circulated pamphlet by the name of The Revolutionary Army by Zou Rong called for the "annihilation of the five million and more of the furry and horned Manchu race." He also writes: "Unjust! Unjust! What is most unjust and bitter in China today is to have to put up with this inferior race of nomads with wolfish ambitions, these thievish Manchus, as our rulers."
In 1905 the leading revolutionary organisation Tongmenghui (Alliance) demanded the "expulsion of the Tartars", referring to the Manchu.

Seven main points against the Manchu seemed to be:

• They were alien, not "Chinese"
• They had been barbarous and heinous in their conquest and control over China.
• They had barbarised China with Manchu customs.
• They had set themselves up as a privileged minority.
• They had subjugated the Han in the manner of a foreign military occupation.
• They practiced political discrimination against the Hans.
• They were, on their end as well, fundamentally at odds and hostile with the Han people.

Until about 1905 or so the Han were forbidden from settling in Manchuria, effectively making it quite like a foreign country to the Han. When the restriction lifted Han Chinese from over-populated northern Chinese areas soon flooded in, perhaps how one would move into a colonial frontier.

From these I would infer that the Manchu were indeed quite disliked and at least once did I see a reference to slaughtering of Manchu people after the revolution with a mention that the revolution wasn't quite so bloodless as it is often portrayed as. No actual historical mentions were given at that point, however.

Still, I would wager to say that the status of Manchuria as Chinese core lands is quite disputed. The original populace was vilified by the Han, the lands themselves had been closed off for about 300 years as a colonial overlord's lands might be and the Republican revolution had relied heavily on the anti-Manchu sentiment. Such a reliance and sentiment can hardly be changed overnight by adopting a slogan of unification. It is very true that the loss of Manchuria to the invading Japanese forces were a source of anger and shame to the Chinese and resulted in resignations in the government for their incapability to resist or repulse the invaders. This, however, does not mean that the lands were considered a core area. In a similar vein military commanders and government officials have been held responsible for not holding the line in offensive wars turned defensive, the German invasion of Russia coming to mind first and foremost. The humiliation at not holding onto an area is not so much about the area but about the incapability to resist and win.

In short I would say that Manchuria is a complicated piece of land at the time.

Sources: Rhoads, E.J.: Manchus & Han - Ethnic Relations and Power in Late Qing and Early Republican China, 1861-1928; Wikipedia

The legal restriction on migration into Manchuria was abolished in 1860s or 70s, and even before that illegal immigrants, hired tenure farmers, and case-by-case approved migrations existed:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chuang_Guandong

And by the time Japan invaded, the overwhelming majority of dwellers in Manchuria were Han Chinese born locally, which is crucial why Xi'an Incident was succesful: Zhang and most of his men had extended families living in places under Japanese control, and that during the crisis, no one relevant in China said anything like "Manchuria is not Chinese, get on with it". In such a crisis, you'd imagine all sort of insults hurled at each other (as manifested in the revolutionary slogans you posted), and yet the possibility of ditching Manchuria was never even considered was a pretty telling sign that Manchuria was considered to be part of China proper by the 30s.

The Han-Manchu race war (or hate crimes) fizzled shortly after the revolution was over thanks to the level-headed decisions taken by the leadership of both ethnicities, and that most perpetrators ended up harming fellow Han in no time since they really couldn't tell the difference, after storming the local government and garrison, the mobs resorted to ridiculous criteria such as speaking Mandarin instead of local variants of Chinese, wearing a queue (Manchurian braid), and women who didn't bind their feet. The end result was that most people found out that by then, most Manchurians were hardly different from Han in any aspect, and by 1930s no one would take any anti-Manchurian actions seriously, and Manchukuo changed little. While there are high profile characters like Puyi on one side, there are also adamant pro-RoC manchurians, such as (former) prince-regent Zaifeng, father of Puyi, who went as far as travelling to Manchukuo to try to convince his son, but as we already know, it's fruitless. The dichotomy in 1930s was between Manchurians who considered themselves Chinese (politically) and those who didn't, no longer a Han vs Manchurian seen during the first decade of the 20th century.

 

[potski]

Very well explained. And regardless of whether some collaborators could be found amongst Manchurians, the main factor is that the KMT never relinquished any claim on Manchuria.

Look at Norway during the period of the game. It's like saying the Norwegian government in exile and the king lost all claims to Norway by 1945, and that it had become German core territory. Ridiculous notion.

If Puyi had led some Manchurian independence movement with wide-spread support amongst the population, and set-up a separate state from China, then we could discuss where the cores lie. He didn't, he was the puppet of all puppets, brought in by Japan as a figurehead for their colonisation, after they had occupied the region in the Mukden Incident.

I would personally like to see a new tag for a restored Qing Empire if Manchukuo fights for it. I mean, Mr. Puyi was an ambitious man.

He was a man with no army, or any other means to establish any rule over China outside of Manchuria. The nominal army of Manchukuo was small and controlled by the Japanese. Even the Japanese recognised that the hatred towards the Emperor outside of Manchuria meant that he could never carry out the same role as a puppet for them in the Reorganised China.

Some bizarre set of ahistorical events would have to occur for him to be restored to the Chinese throne. Still if you can mod the restoration of the Kaiser or the Tsar, then you can mod Puyi as the Emperor of all China.