Rename territories in Germania according to Ptolemy and science!

Rename territories in Germania according to Ptolemy and science!

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Marcus Pica

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One of the DD's before the release stated that the Digital Atlas of the Roman Empire was used to name the territories, which is great as this is the most complete source of ancient roman place names easily accessible. However, it doesn't cover the areas beyond the Roman frontier and it seems that territory names e.g. in Germania were made in some random fashion, thou I noticed some references to tribal names and ancient toponyms.


GERMANIA

I want to point out this german research published in a monograph and reported by Spiegel:
"A group of classical philologists, mathematical historians and surveying experts at Berlin Technical University's Department for Geodesy and Geoinformation Science has produced an astonishing map of central Europe as it was 2,000 years ago /.../ This unusual map draws on information from the mathematician and astronomer Ptolemy /.../ One of these drawings depicts "Germania Magna," /.../ Ptolemy demonstrated extensive knowledge of this remote area, indicating the locations of mountains, rivers and islands. An index lists 94 "poleis," or cities, noting their latitude and longitude accurately to within a few minutes. /.../ Yet the data the ancient geographer used is distorted. Errors of scale crept in as he transcribed the Earth's sphere to the flat plane of a map. Ptolemy believed the northern lands to be narrower and more elongated than they are and bent Jutland in Denmark and Schleswig-Holstein in Germany too far to the east. /.../ The Berlin-based team pored over the recalcitrant data for six years, working together to develop a so-called "geodetic deformation analysis" that would help to correct the map's mistakes. /.../ It was primarily surveyors with the Roman army, which appears to have advanced as far as the Vistula River, who collected information on the barbarians' lands. Dieter Lelgemann, a geodesist in Berlin, is firmly convinced that "Ptolemy was drawing on work done by military engineers. /.../ The ancient astronomer indicated cities' exact locations down to minutes of degrees. These coordinates, once decoded, indeed often turn out to line up precisely with sites where archaeologists have previously found Gothic or Teutonic houses and grand burial tombs erected for tribal princes. /.../ "

The article also provides a google maps link with all the "decoded locations" including some description of sites, which can be used to change individual territory names according to this research.

Capture.PNG


I present just a few examples of some changes that would be made (I compared the I:R map with the google map link):

Contemporary city (country) - current I:R territory name - suggested Magna Germania name:
Brno (CZ) - Phargisatus? - Eburodunum
Kostrzyn (PL) - Iadua - Colancorum
Dresden (DE) - Thuringiana? - Lupfurdum


Actually, by doing the comparison, I noticed that some I:R territories in northern Germany already have some "correct" names, perhaps using a different source related to Ptolemy? Nevertheless, the other located places in interior and East Germany, Austria, Poland, Czechia and Slovakia should be included as well.


SCYTHIA

While I am at it, I also suggest looking at other sources. I want to point out the famous place of Gelonus from Herodotus's Tales on Scythia: "The Budini for their part, being a large and numerous nation, are all mightily blue-eyed and ruddy. And a city among them has been built, a wooden city, and the name of the city is Gelonus. Of its wall then in size each side is of thirty stades and high and all wooden. And their homes are wooden and their shrines. For indeed there is in the very place Greek gods’ shrines adorned in the Greek way with statues, altars and wooden shrines and for triennial Dionysus festivals in honour of Dionysus."

"Excavations at Bilske Horodyshche (uk:Більське городище) near the village of Bilsk near Poltava in Ukraine (Coordinates 50°5′34″N 34°38′46″E ) have led to suggestions by archaeologist Boris Shramko and others identifying it as the Scythian capital Gelonus.[2] It is strategically situated on the exact boundary between the steppe and forest-steppe. /.../ According to Herodotus each side of Gelonus is 30 stades long, the area in today's units would be about 30 square kilometres. The archeological site around Belsk, including necropolis, comprises about 80 km², and the fortifications enclose some 40 km². The north-south axis, along the Vorskla River is 17 km long. The remains of walls up to 12 metres are visible today and stretch over the horizon. The total length of the ramparts is 33 km. Inside the fortification, lay three "keeps", 150,000 m², 650,000 m², and 720,000 m² in area, surrounded by eroded earth walls still up to 16 metres high. Several kurgans reminded the inhabitants of the ancient Scythian burial tradition."

Contemporary city (country) - current I:R territory name - suggested Herodotus name:
Bilsk (UA) - Volg - Gelonus

Bilsk is actually just beyond the edge of the map, Volg is the closest match.
 
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Another place not mentioned in Magna Germania is the sacred hill Ślęża in Silesia (PL), supposedly a sacred mountain since the Bronze age with remains of possibly La-tene sculptures. The name of the hill is related to the name of the whole region of Silesia. According to some theories, the region was named after the Germanic tribe of Silingi, related to the Vandals.

"The name of the territory of Silesia is often assumed to either derive from the river or the mountain now called the Ślęza River or Mount Ślęża. The hill was a religious center of the Silingi, situated south-south-east of modern-day Wrocław (Breslau),[14][15] although the religious importance of the location dates back to the sun-worshipping people of the Lusatian culture, as early as 1300 B.C. /.../ During the reign of the Roman Emperor Marcus Aurelius, (A.D. 161–180) the Silingi lived in the "Vandal mountains", later part of the former Sudetenland"

I don't know how the name would be written thou. Perhaps Mons Silingorum (forgot my Latin declensions :)

Contemporary city (country) - current I:R territory name - suggested name:
Gora Ślęża - Marsignia - Mons Silingorum?


The mountain is solitary, rising above the Silesian plan, so it can be seen from afar.


Possibly Celtic zoomorhpic statue, one of many on the mountain:
 

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In this case, you will have to add the Vandals (separately from Lugii), which consisted of Silingi and Hasdingi. And Lugii must be divided into several tribes. I was surprised when instead of the names of the area I saw the names of the tribes.
Together with Palando, we offered a map of Germania before the release of the Imperator https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...vindelici-and-germania.1134917/#post-24971787.


I did not agree with him in some places.
1) In particular, he believed that Geruls should not be in Zealand. I do not think so.
2) The location of the Scandinavian tribes in the place of Norway.
3) The Burgundians in those days lived on the island of Burgundaholmr (Bornholm), and not where they are indicated Palando.

Aestii can be supplemented by tribes from the map of Ptolemy.
Then the Finnish tribes known in the Middle Ages (Ves (in place of future Novgorod), Mordva, Cheremis, Merya) already begin. Later, in the II-III centuries, the Balts will move to the East, to the Moscow region, as well as Kazan. Moscow (The original sounds like Moskva, from Baltic translates as a swampy place) is not a Slavic word. And for Kazan will have to look for a more ancient name
In Finland, the Arkhangelsk region, the northern part of Sweden and Norway, Saami lands are already

Scythian territory to increase north. And add Scythian plowmen in the north, within the borders of the Scythian Power

Ethnopolitical map of Eurasia 300 BC http://gumilevica.kulichki.net/chronosophy/AtlasEurasia.htm


CELTS (10-53)
10. LUSITANIANS
1. Tribal unions of Lusitanians.
2. 78, 1 thousand square meters. km
6. Druidism.
8. 131, p. 68, card; 135, T 7, s 163-164, map, T 11, s 426.
11. CALLAICI (GALLAECI)
1. The tribal union of the Callaici.
2. 55, 1 thousand square meters. km
6. Druidism.
8.27, p. 149; 28, T 1, s 493, map; abuss.narod.ru/Biblio/maps1. htm.
12. ASTURES
1. The tribal union of Asturs.
2.223, 7 thousand square meters. km
6. Druidism.
8.27, p. 151; 28, T 1, s 493, map; abuss.narod.ru/Biblio/maps1. htm.
13. CANTABRIANS
1. The tribal union of the Cantabrians.
2.223, 7 thousand square meters. km
6. Druidism.
8.27, p. 151; 28, T 1, s 493, map; abuss.narod.ru/Biblio/maps1. htm.
14. VACCAEI
1. The tribal union of Vaccaei.
2. 39, 2 thousand square meters. km
4. Acutia.
6. Druidism.
8.27, p. 149; 28, T 1, s 491, map; abuss.narod.ru/Biblio/maps1. htm.
15. VETTONES
1. Tribal union of Vettones.
2. 52, 3 thousand square meters. km
6. Druidism.
8.27, p. 149; 28, T 1, s 491, map; abuss.narod.ru/Biblio/maps1. htm.
16. CARPETANI.
1. The tribal union of the Carpetani.
2. 24 thousand square meters. km
6. Druidism.
8.27, s 139, s 149; 28, T 1, s 491, map; abuss.narod.ru/Biblio/maps1. htm.
17. CELTIBERIANS
1. Tribal unions of the Celtiberians.
2.21, 8 thousand square meters. km
6. Druidism.
8.27, p. 157; 28, T 1, s 491; 131, p. 68, map; 135, T 7, s 163-164, map, T 11, s 426.
18. VERONA
1. Tribal union of Verona.
2. 4, 9 thousand square meters. km
4. Varia.
6. Druidism.
8.27, p. 157; abuss.narod.ru/Biblio/maps1. htm.
19. ARMORICA
1. Armorican tribal unions.
2. 39 thousand square meters. km
6. Druidism.
8.135, T 1, s 748.
20. BELGAE
1. Tribal union of Belgae.
2. 70, 5 thousand square meters. km
6. Druidism.
8. 131, p. 68, card; 135, T 7, s 163-164, map, T 11, s 426; 138, p. 187; www.genealogia.ru/lib/catalog/rulers.
21. TREVERI
1. Tribal union of Treveri.
2. 120, 5 thousand square meters. km
4. Trevers.
6. Druidism.
8. 24, T 1, s 175, map; 131, p. 68, map; 135, T 7, s 163-164, map, T 11, s 426.
22. SENONES
1. The tribal union of Senones.
2. 12, 6 thousand square meters. km
4. Agendicum (modern. Sans).
6. Druidism.
8. 24, T 1, s 180; 131, p. 68, map; 135, T 7, s 163-164, map, T 11, s 426.
23. BITURIGI
1. Tribal union of Biturigi.
2. 11, 4 thousand square meters. km
4. Avaricum (modern Bourges).
6. Druidism.
8.28, T 2, s 471; 131, p. 68, map; 135, T 7, s 163-164, map, T 11, s 426.
24. HELVETII
1. Tribal union of Helvetii.
2. 38, 3 thousand square meters. km
4. Aventicum (modern Advance).
6. Druidism.
8. 131, p. 68, card; 135, T 7, s 163-164, map, T 11, s 426; 138, p. 184; www.genealogia.ru/lib/catalog/rulers.
25. SEQUANI
1. The tribal union of Sequani.
2. 24, 4 thousand square meters. km
4. Vesontio (modern. Besancon).
6. Druidism.
8. 24, T 1, s 41, s 175, card, s 180; 131, p. 68, map; 135, T 7, s 163-164, map, T 11, s 426; 138, p. 182.
26. AEDUI
1. The tribal union of the Aedui.
2. 44, 4 thousand square meters. km
4. Bibracte (modern Mont Bevre).
5a. vergobreg.
6. Druidism.
8. 24, T 1, s 175, map; 131, p. 68, map; 135, T 7, s 163-164, map, T 11, s 426; 154, s 201; www.genealogia.ru/lib/catalog/rulers.
27. VIROMANDUI
1. The tribal union of the Viromandui.
2. 17, 1 thousand square meters. km
4. Birbax (modern lan).
6. Druidism.
8. 24, T 1, s 175, map; www.genealogia.ru/lib/catalog/rulers.
28. MORINI
1. Tribal union of Morini.
2. 6, 5 thousand square meters. km
4. Itius (modern Сalais).
6. Druidism.
8. 24, T 1, s 175, map; www.genealogia.ru/lib/catalog/rulers.
29. ATREBATES
1. Tribal union of Atrebates.
2. 16, 1 thousand square meters. km
4. Nemetocenna (modern Arras).
6. Druidism.
8. 24, T 1, s 175, map; www.genealogia.ru/lib/catalog/rulers.
30. BELLOVACI
1. The tribal union of Belovci.
2. 9 thousand square meters. km
4. Bratuspantium (modern. Beauvais).
6. Druidism.
8. 24, T 1, s 175, map; www.genealogia.ru/lib/catalog/rulers.
31. EBURONES
1. The tribal union of the Eburons.
2. 10, 1 thousand square meters. km
4. Aduatuca.
6. Druidism.
8. 24, T 1, s 175, map; www.genealogia.ru/lib/catalog/rulers.
32. VANGIONES
1. The tribal union of the Vangiones.
2. 29, 9 thousand square meters. km
4. Borbetomagus (modern Worms).
6. Druidism.
8. 24, T 1, s 175, map.
33. MEDIOMATRICI
1. The tribal union of Mediomatrici.
2. 14, 3 thousand square meters. km
4. Divodurum (modern. Metz).
6. Druidism.
8. 24, T 1, s 175, map; www.genealogia.ru/lib/catalog/rulers.
34. ARVERNI
1. Tribal Union of Arverni.
2.28, 6 thousand square meters. km
4. Gergovia (modern Clermont-Ferrand).
6. Druidism.
8. 24, T 1, s 175, map; www.genealogia.ru/lib/catalog/rulers.
35. PARISII
1. The tribal union of the Parisii.
2. 55, 2 thousand square meters. km
4. Lutetia (modern Paris).
6. Druidism.
8. 24, T 1, s 175, map; www.genealogia.ru/lib/catalog/rulers.
36. LIGNONES
1. The tribal union of Lignones.
2. 11, 5 thousand square meters. km
4. Andematunnum (modern Langres).
6. Druidism.
8. 24, T 1, s 175, map; www.genealogia.ru/lib/catalog/rulers.
37. CARNUTES
1. The tribal union of the Carnutes.
2. 14, 8 thousand square meters. km
4. Cenabum (modern Orleans).
6. Druidism.
8. 24, T 1, s 175, map; www.genealogia.ru/lib/catalog/rulers.
38. PICTONES
1. Tribal union of Pictones.
2. 30, 2 thousand square meters. km
4. Pictavia (modern Poitiers).
6. Druidism.
8. 24, T 1, s 175, map; www.genealogia.ru/lib/catalog/rulers.
39. CARDUCI
1. Tribal union of Carduci.
2. 32, 4 thousand square meters. km
4. Uxellodunum (modern Puy d'Issol).
6. Druidism.
8. 24, T 1, s 175, map; www.genealogia.ru/lib/catalog/rulers.
40. VASATES
1. The tribal union of the Vasates.
2. 51, 6 thousand square meters. km
4. Burdigala (modern Bordeaux).
6. Druidism.
8. 24, T 1, s 175, map; www.genealogia.ru/lib/catalog/rulers.
41. LEMOVICES
1. The tribal union of Lemovices.
2.221.5 thousand square meters. km
4. Limoges.
6. Druidism.
8. 24, T 1, s 175, map; www.genealogia.ru/lib/catalog/rulers.
42. VOLCAE
1. Tribal union of Volcae.
2.136, 7 thousand square meters. km
6. Druidism.
8. 131, p. 68, card; 135, T 7, s 163-164, map, T 11, s 426; 138, p. 178.
43. VOLCAE-TECTOSAGES
1. Tribal union of Volcae-Texotages.
2. 16, 1 thousand square meters. km
4. Tolosa (modern Toulouse).
6. Druidism.
8. 131, p. 68, card; 135, T 4, s 67-68, map, T 7, s 163-164, map, T 11, s 426.
44. ALLOBROGES
1. The tribal union of Allobroges.
2. 50, 9 thousand square meters. km
4. Vienna.
6. Druidism.
8. 131, p. 68, card; 135, T 7, s 163-164, map, T 11, s 426; 138, p. 178.
45. INSUBRES
1. Tribal union of Insubres.
2. 42, 3 thousand square meters. km
4. Mediolan.
6. Druidism.
8. abuss.narod.ru/Biblio/maps1. htm; www.genealogia.ru/lib/catalog/rulers.
46. CENOMANI
1. The tribal union of Cenomani.
2. 8, 7 thousand square meters. km
4. Brixia (modern Brescia).
6. Druidism.
8. abuss.narod.ru/Biblio/maps1. htm; www.genealogia.ru/lib/catalog/rulers.
47. CISALPIAN BOII
1. Tribal union of the Boii.
2. 5, 4 thousand square meters. km
4. Bononia (modern Bologna).
6. Druidism.
8. abuss.narod.ru/Biblio/maps1. htm; www.genealogia.ru/lib/catalog/rulers.
48. BOII
1. Tribal union of the Boii.
2. 88, 3 thousand square meters. km
6. Druidism.
8. 131, p. 68, card; 135, T 7, s 163-164, map, T 11, s 426.
49. VINDELICI
1. The tribal union of Vindelici.
2. 33, 8 thousand square meters. km
4. Manching.
6. Druidism.
8. 66, T 1, s 506; 154, p. 143.
50. GALATIANS
1. The tribal union of Galatians.
2. 107, 4 thousand square meters. km
6. Druidism.
8.112, T 1, s 488.
51. SKORDISCI
1. Tribal union of Skordisci.
2. 60, 3 thousand square meters. km
4. Singidunum.
6. Druidism and traditional beliefs.
8. 66, T 1, s 504; 135, T 5, s 795, map.
52. BRITOLAGI
1. The tribal union of Britolagi.
2. 98, 9 thousand square meters. km
6. Druidism and traditional cults.
8. 66, T 1, s 504-505.
53. RHAETI
1. The tribal union of the Rhaeti.
2. 91, 7 thousand square meters. km
6. Druidism.
8.28, T 2, s 69; 135, T 7, s 163-165, map.
100. PODKLOSZOVE BURIALS CULTURE
1. Tribes of the Podkloszove culture (possibly the ancestors of the Slavs)
2.148, 2 thousand square meters. km
6. Traditional beliefs.
8. 131, s 11, card.
BALTS (101-107)
101. NEURI
1. Tribal union of neuros (Milograd culture).
2.151, 4 thousand square meters. km
6. Traditional beliefs.
8.101, s 246; 127, p. 20, map.
102. BUDINI
1. The tribal union of the Budins (Yukhnovо culture).
2. 166, 6 thousand square meters. km
6. Traditional beliefs.
8.127, with 20, card.
103. GELONIANS
1. Tribal union of Gelonians (North-Donets culture).
2. 24, 1 thousand square meters. km
6. Traditional beliefs.
8.127, with 20, card.
104. DNIEPR-DVINA CULTURE
1. Tribes of the Dnieper-Dvina culture.
2. 99, 8 thousand square meters. km
6. Traditional beliefs.
8.101, s 245; 127, p. 20, map.
105. CULTURE OF BRUSHED POTTERY.
1. Tribes of the culture of Brushed pottery (ancestors of the Lithuanians).
2. 52, 3 thousand square meters. km
6. Traditional beliefs.
8. 96a, s 351; 104a, s 131, map.
106. LOWER NEMAN CULTURE.
1. Tribes of the Lower Neman culture (ancestors of the Curonian).
2. 66, 2 thousand square meters. km
6. Traditional beliefs.
8.104a, s 131, map.
107. EAST-PRUSSIAN CULTURE.
1. Tribes of East Prussian culture (ancestors of the Prussians).
2. 141, 7 thousand square meters. km
6. Traditional beliefs.
8.104a, s 131, map.
FINNS (108-110)
108. THISSAGETS
1. Tribal union of Thissagets (Gorodets culture, possibly the ancestors of the Mordovians).
2.182, 5 thousand square meters. km
6. Traditional beliefs.
8.101, s 249; 108, s 232; 127, p. 20, map.
109. YIRKS
1. Tribal union of Yirks (Dyakovo culture, perhaps the ancestors of the Meryans).
2. 378, 5 thousand square meters. km
6. Traditional beliefs.
8.101, s 246-247; 127, p. 20, map.
110. ANANIN CULTURE
1. Tribes of Ananin culture (possibly the ancestors of Perm and Udmurts).
2. 292, 9 thousand square meters. km
6. Traditional beliefs.
8.101, s 249, s 361, card; 108, p. 347.
 

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Thank you for the links. I am not speaking about the tribes though, but just about the name of the territories.
 

Nykyus

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I talked about the game at release, not about your proposal. In this particular case. I was surprised when instead of the names of the locality I saw the names of the tribes.
I generally approve your offer. It would be necessary to change the names of the localities to your proposed ones, and in return give these names to the tribes
 
Last edited:

Marcus Pica

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Well, I was just thinking about how the territory with the famous Silesian mountain, which deserves being included in the game due to it being an important regional feature of the late iron age, should be named. Supposed relatedness to a tribal name would just help in naming it. I don't request any new tribes being added so the discussion about Lugii, Vandals, Silingi and such is not needed.