Rename Collectivism to Compliance

[Murmeldjuret]

Over and over I see on these forums people assuming collectivism=marxism/socialism/communism which it generally is here on earth. People assume collectivism/individualism is somehow related to a strong state vs a weak state, which it is here on earth.

I think the willingness to be slaves and less requirement of food has nothing to do with the strength of the state. I am pro collectivism but not exactly willing to be a slave, so I may be biased.

However, I see the ethos primarily added to simulate collective hive-minds of insectlike species. As such I think simply renaming it to compliant will serve it much better and avoid all the confusion here on the forums, that will inevitably also spring up after release.

 

[Haldan]

rename it to masochism

 

[beckermt]

If you care about your own well-being or the well-being of other individuals over the success of the group, you're not collectivist. Humans aren't collectivist. If you subscribe to social welfare/communism/socialist ideals, you're a humanist and an individualist, because those ideas place value on the happiness and health of the individuals within a society.

Now, I'm not saying you're not willing to make sacrifices for others by paying higher taxes or donating to charity or whatever. However, you're making those sacrifices to help other PEOPLE. Not to help the state or the group or whatever succeed, explicitly. (Again, tangential (to this conversation) benefits to the group exist when the individuals in that group are happy/fed.)

So, renaming Collectivism to Compliance would be absurd, because a collectivist could be just as non-compliant, if xhe thinks that an action would be bad for the group.

Note to self: Create a template for this argument so I can stop typing it up over and over.

 

[Murmeldjuret]

If you care about your own well-being or the well-being of other individuals over the success of the group, you're not collectivist. Humans aren't collectivist. If you subscribe to social welfare/communism/socialist ideals, you're a humanist and an individualist, because those ideas place value on the happiness and health of the individuals within a society.

Now, I'm not saying you're not willing to make sacrifices for others by paying higher taxes or donating to charity or whatever. However, you're making those sacrifices to help other PEOPLE. Not to help the state or the group or whatever succeed, explicitly. (Again, tangential (to this conversation) benefits to the group exist when the individuals in that group are happy/fed.)

So, renaming Collectivism to Compliance would be absurd, because a collectivist could be just as non-compliant, if xhe thinks that an action would be bad for the group.

Note to self: Create a template for this argument so I can stop typing it up over and over.

I can see we agree to disagree, and I do not want a convoluted political debate so lets drop assumptions about how we all think. I also concede humanity on the whole is individualist so my collectivist worldview would place me in the neutral zone of the Stellaris spectra.

I am not saying collectivism is an outright wrong term to use, only that Stellaris has it at an extreme end of what it is normally used as and this causes confusion. But I also have to concede @Gregsplays has a point that it is too close to release and changing it would probably cause more confusion than just leaving it as it is. I only posted because I wanted to air my opinion (this is the internet after all) but my argument is fatally flawed and as such we probably should drop the whole discussion.

 

[EvilTom]

There are probably lots of things where people are confusing what some of the ethos meanings are, or they are not quite accurate.
Saying that... if you search for "opposite to individualism" you will get a response of "collectivism".

Perhaps deference/complaint vs non-compliant could be added. The individualist/collectivist to me is more a definition of the government than ethos.

I can see a change in the future to allow more ethos, either by creating more or by splitting up existing ones.

I keep seeing people referring to pacifist as people who go around being the peacekeeping force of the galaxy. To me a pacifist is someone who wouldn't go around doing that (unless it was through diplomacy and no "force")

 

[Bad_Haggis]

Collectivism is extremely broad, as is individualism (which can mean everything from Kropotkin's Anarchism to Ayn Rand's Objectivism).

I don't particularly mind the usage. Collectivism does generally conjure up the image of putting the needs of the collective above the individual. As far as I'm aware, you can still not have slaves in a collectivist state in Stellaris however.

I don't really play Paradox games for the great nuance of their political theory simulation anyway.