Rename Andalusia to Al-Ándalus

[elpibeuruguayo]

Reasons?, because that was the name of the muslim territory in Spain. Andalusia is an translation of Al-Ándalus. And this would have to be the flag of Al-Ándalus

That is the arabic name of Al-Ándalus.

 

[Chlodio]

Andalusia is an translation of Al-Ándalus.

But all other country names are written in English, I see no reason to make Andalusia exception.

 

[elpibeuruguayo]

But all other country names are written in English, I see no reason to make Andalusia exception.

Because "Muslim Andalusia" was never named Andalusia, it was called Al-Ándalus. Andalusia was called after spanish reconquest.

 

[MagnusDux]

Andalucía is the castilianization of Al-Andalusiya (Al-Andalusiya --> Andalucía --> Andalusia (english))

Al-Andalusiya, the adjectival form of the Arabic language al-Andalus (source: wikipedia)

I'm sure most of the countries in the eu4 map didn't use the english version of their name but it would be incredible confusing if eu4 used the original names, i don't see any reason that Andalusia should be the only one not in english

 

[elpibeuruguayo]

Andalucía is the castilianization of Al-Andalusiya (Al-Andalusiya --> Andalucía --> Andalusia (english))

Al-Andalusiya, the adjectival form of the Arabic language al-Andalus (source: wikipedia)

I'm sure most of the countries in the eu4 map didn't use the english version of their name but it would be incredible confusing if eu4 used the original names, i don't see any reason that Andalusia should be the only one not in english

What I said is that if you are talking about the muslims in Spain, you dont use Andalusia, you use Al-Ándalus, you use Andalusia to talk about the spanish one.
Example:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_and_cultural_exchange_in_Al-Andalus
http://www.onislam.net/english/cult...460804-populations-of-al-andalus-special.html

 

[neondt]

He's right, Al-Andalus is the correct "English" term to refer to Muslim Iberia in that period.

 

[Krajzen]

EU4 country name is supposed to be consistent, in single linguistic 'mode', thus countries are named by simple 1 word as much as it's possible and using as simple variant as possible.

Al-Andalus would break that aestethic unity with 'al' prefix.

Also, technically there should be Al-Maghrib, Al-Yaman, Al-Higaz. Al-Mamalik and so on instead of Morocco, Yemen, Hejaz, Mamluks but this would simply look not ergonomic.

I even once did a mod replacing English country names to native ones and after playing with it some time I... deleted it because it turned to be surprisingly tiring to have various country names in various language systems and translations/indigenous terms. Even my motherland's name, Polska, felt very out of place in the English game with most country names being in English.

Al-Andalus shouldn't be a thing for the same reason Altin Urda, Crna Gora, Cymru, Uman, Nihon and Haudenosaunee shouldn't be in the game: clarity and consistency.

 

[Sagif]

Al-Andalus is the "original" name for Andalucia...
But it should only appear in-game like that when it is owned by some nation like Morocco, Granada, Algiers, Tripoli, Mamluks, etc, etc...
Otherwise, we would have a province in Arab, in the middle of Spanish provinces, owned by Spain...

By the same logic, half or more of the provinces in Iberia should change their names... Algarve to Al-Gharb, Alentenjo to Al-Eborah ou Al-Bajah, etc, etc...

The province name adapts to however owns it...
And remember, you cannot use the argument of "it was it's first name", it's simply not valid...

 

[neondt]

EU4 country name is supposed to be consistent, in single linguistic 'mode', thus countries are named by simple 1 word as much as it's possible and using as simple variant as possible.

Al-Andalus would break that aestethic unity with 'al' prefix.

Also, technically there should be Al-Maghrib, Al-Yaman, Al-Higaz. Al-Mamalik and so on instead of Morocco, Yemen, Hejaz, Mamluks but this would simply look not ergonomic.

I even once did a mod replacing English country names to native ones and after playing with it some time I... deleted it because it turned to be surprisingly tiring to have various country names in various language systems and translations/indigenous terms. Even my motherland's name, Polska, felt very out of place in the English game with most country names being in English.

Al-Andalus shouldn't be a thing for the same reason Altin Urda, Crna Gora, Cymru, Uman, Nihon and Haudenosaunee shouldn't be in the game: clarity and consistency.

It's not quite the same thing. Cymru for example is the Welsh name for Wales. Al-Andalus is the English term for Muslim Iberia (which just so happens to also be the Arabic term), while Andalusia is the English term for the modern Spanish region (which also happens to be the Spanish term).

 

[elpibeuruguayo]

It's not quite the same thing. Cymru for example is the Welsh name for Wales. Al-Andalus is the English term for Muslim Iberia (which just so happens to also be the Arabic term), while Andalusia is the English term for the modern Spanish region (which also happens to be the Spanish term).

This

 

[Basileios Makedon]

Al-Andalus is the "original" name for Andalucia...
But it should only appear in-game like that when it is owned by some nation like Morocco, Granada, Algiers, Tripoli, Mamluks, etc, etc...
Otherwise, we would have a province in Arab, in the middle of Spanish provinces, owned by Spain...

By the same logic, half or more of the provinces in Iberia should change their names... Algarve to Al-Gharb, Alentenjo to Al-Eborah ou Al-Bajah, etc, etc...

The province name adapts to however owns it...
And remember, you cannot use the argument of "it was it's first name", it's simply not valid...

I think he's refering to the country

 

[Lemont Elwood]

Here's the other thing: Al-Andalus sounds bad.

It also has explicitly cultural and religious connotations. Andalusia works better since, in EU4, you never know what's going to happen to the demographcis of a region.

 

[BFTeixeira]

Here's the other thing: Al-Andalus sounds bad.

It also has explicitly cultural and religious connotations. Andalusia works better since, in EU4, you never know what's going to happen to the demographcis of a region.

You mean like 'The Papal States'?

 

[grommile]

It also has explicitly cultural and religious connotations.

Those cultural and religious connotations are the reason the country is in the game, surely?

 

[Lemont Elwood]

Not if you break the country apart artificially, or if the region is independent and then changes on its own.

 

[Sagif]

I think he's refering to the country

Ohh...

But having Al-Andalus instead of Granada (I believe that it is that one) opens a precedent... Soon we could have Spain--> España, Germany-->Deutschland, Italy--> Italia, etc, etc...
Every country with it's own name in their own language... Even in Europe it get's a bit "off-balance" and aesthetic, but now imagine doing the same to Asia, where we would have countries' names written in their own language... It breaks the game...

It also has explicitly cultural and religious connotations

It does not... Al-Andalus does not mean Jihad or "Death to the Infidels", it's a name that a culture (a very advanced culture for their time by the way) gave to a certain region in modern Spain...

If we were to use it as an argument, we would seen very soon nations like Teutonic Order, Livonian Order, The Papal States, The Knights, etc, having to change their names due to "explicit cultural and religious connitations"...

 

[Lemont Elwood]

Al-Andalus is Arabic and, by extension, Muslim (since any power that would forceably Christianize the land would also likely displace the Arabs... as happened historically). It's like calling Germany "Deutschland" in game. It doesn't account for how the culture and religion might evolve through normal gameplay (like, say, Czech expanding to take it over).

As for the ones you mentioned, I wouldn't have a problem with giving those countries alternative names for different government types. That's what we need to move towards: flag and name based on government. The Papal States should not be the Papal States if it's been converted to Islam. The Teutonic Order isn't an order at all if it's been transformed into a Constitutional Republic.

 

[elpibeuruguayo]

Al-Andalus is Arabic and, by extension, Muslim (since any power that would forceably Christianize the land would also likely displace the Arabs... as happened historically). It's like calling Germany "Deutschland" in game. It doesn't account for how the culture and religion might evolve through normal gameplay (like, say, Czech expanding to take it over).

As for the ones you mentioned, I wouldn't have a problem with giving those countries alternative names for different government types. That's what we need to move towards: flag and name based on government. The Papal States should not be the Papal States if it's been converted to Islam. The Teutonic Order isn't an order at all if it's been transformed into a Constitutional Republic.

Al-Andalus is used in english to refer muslim spain, Andalusia is used to refer the spanish region.
EG:
http://www.onislam.net/english/cult...460804-populations-of-al-andalus-special.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_and_cultural_exchange_in_Al-Andalus

Andalusia is never used if you are talking about muslims in Iberia.

 

[Sagif]

Al-Andalus is Arabic and, by extension, Muslim (since any power that would forceably Christianize the land would also likely displace the Arabs... as happened historically). It's like calling Germany "Deutschland" in game. It doesn't account for how the culture and religion might evolve through normal gameplay (like, say, Czech expanding to take it over).

As for the ones you mentioned, I wouldn't have a problem with giving those countries alternative names for different government types. That's what we need to move towards: flag and name based on government. The Papal States should not be the Papal States if it's been converted to Islam. The Teutonic Order isn't an order at all if it's been transformed into a Constitutional Republic.

I understand what you are saying, at it would be nice and a lot more immersive to witness such changer happen in-game.
But it would require an obscene database... We would have to consider multiple changes in-game, from those that you have said, to other that are extremely unlikely...

 

[Lemont Elwood]

Al-Andalus is used in english to refer muslim spain, Andalusia is used to refer the spanish region.

Yeah. As such, it makes more sense for the tag to be connected to the region. Chances are, if you see the region become released through normal play, it'll be as an artificial Catholic state released in order to weaken Castille.

A good comparison might be Tuscany. Historically, what is currently Tuscany was called Florence. However, the name "Florence" only makes sense in the context of the state being a Merchant Republic with Florence as a capital. Since Tuscany can potentially develop into any government form, it is instead named for the region...

I understand what you are saying, at it would be nice and a lot more immersive to witness such changer happen in-game.
But it would require an obscene database... We would have to consider multiple changes in-game, from those that you have said, to other that are extremely unlikely...

I don't think it'd be that hard at all, honestly. Flag changes would be pretty uncommon and more than likely tied to events considering that ideological conflict isn't a deal in this game... you wouldn't have to have, for example, rival Communist, Fascist, Democratic, and Monarchist flags for each nation. Most nations wouldn't even need name changes, considering that the tags are pretty generic themselves (Great Britain, for example, can accomadate any sort of government type).

Changes can also be implemented gradually, like first implementing changes for Europe, and then Asia, and then the rest; just adding more of the world with each patch.