Removing "Is Independent" from Certain Formables

[Mr.Grizzly]

So this is something that's bothered me for quite some time, and while I am aware that some might read the title and say something along the lines of "Well it's a formable, you should need to be independent as it's a sign of you expanding your own realm" and while that is absolutely true, the big reasons why the requirement of being independent annoys me is that it prevents me from acquiring certain nations as subjects that I would want to have.

Here is an example as Great Britain (Note: This is just a quick setup I did with console commands at start date, so ignore the extra stuff)

Let's say I start as England, do the usual stuff, eventually eat up Scotland and form Great Britain, while on the island of Ireland I fed my vassal, Meath, which I released at start of the game to avoid coring costs on Ireland, and I don't want to integrate him. In fact, I would rather keep him and elevate him to the nation of Ireland.

Now there's two ways this could be handled, one from the point of view of the subject, the other from the view of the overlord.

Looking from the view of the subject, in this case Meath, what could be done is rather tweaking the decision and removing the "Is Independent" requirement. Of course a subject can't just get up and change who it is without overlord permission so the event should go to them, in this case Great Britain, where they decide if they will allow their subject of Meath to evolve into Ireland, for gameplay sake I would make it so the AI always accepts.



The other option, and I prefer it, is adding a second decision that is viewable for certain formables, similar to how some formables already have two ways of being formed. This decision would be called for the Meath scenario, "Request Formation of Ireland" or something along those lines, this would be similar to the other suggestion I made above but would is separated due to the fact that it would come at a higher cost then the usual "Increased Centralization" penalty that comes with forming a new tag. Now honestly I don't know what those penalties could be right now, personally I prefer the idea of increased tribute to the overlord to represent them saying yes at a cost, so in a usual vassal case it's a loss of income, perhaps if you're a march you send a tribute of manpower and sailors.

Now the other way this could be implemented, from the view of the overlord, would be a decision appears for formables that their subjects can form. This would give them direct control over when the subject is allowed to upgrade, instead of waiting for the subject to ask. You can take most of the ideas of how to balance it from the paragraph above. I don't know if it's feasible but maybe you could even have both the option for the overlord and the subject.

One advantage I think this would have on gameplay is allow for more countries to exist even in the later stages of the game, instead of constant blobbing by direct conquest or subject feeding, one might be more inclined to keep subjects around if they can upgrade them.

Here is a list of formables that I think would work without the need to be independent:

- Austria
- Bavaria
- Croatia
- Dalmatia
- Franconia
- Greece
- Hanover
- Ireland
- Jerusalem
- Kurland
- Netherlands
- Pomerania
- Prussia
- Romania
- Sardinia-Piedmont
- Silesia
- Swabia
- Tuscany
- Two Sicilies
- Westphalia

If I let any tags out that you think should be on the list, feel free to add in. Please tell me what you like and dislike, hoping to have a good discussion with this one.

 

[mclemente]

I agree with you. Jerusalem, Kurland and non-generic Prussia (Brandenburg and Teutonic Order) don't need to be independent already, but Jerusalem is limited to discovery and reformation ages.

 

[Mr.Grizzly]

I agree with you. Jerusalem, Kurland and non-generic Prussia (Brandenburg and Teutonic Order) don't need to be independent already, but Jerusalem is limited to discovery and reformation ages.

I knew about Prussia already but figured I'd put them in the list anyway, I didn't know about Jerusalem and Kurland, thanks for the heads up

 

[Wixelt]

I agree with you. Jerusalem, Kurland and non-generic Prussia (Brandenburg and Teutonic Order) don't need to be independent already, but Jerusalem is limited to discovery and reformation ages.

A lot of overtly religious decisions/mechanic are disabled after the age of absolution starts.

 

[Doldenberg]

I'd disagree somewhat about Netherlands because the idea of "the Netherlands" is so clearly tied to becoming independent, but in fact, I'd actually argue that simply for usability reasons, it should still be possible and in fact even be possible for more tags beyond that. Basically for anything that isn't Empire-Rank.

 

[Mr.Grizzly]

I'd disagree somewhat about Netherlands because the idea of "the Netherlands" is so clearly tied to becoming independent, but in fact, I'd actually argue that simply for usability reasons, it should still be possible and in fact even be possible for more tags beyond that. Basically for anything that isn't Empire-Rank.

At first I thought that too, however I did think that keeping the option open was better, considering the size of the Netherlands, yes even if we include the territory of Flanders and Wallonia, means it ought to stay on the lit. For example perhaps a Spanish or Austrian player would rather the small trading nation control more territory in the Channel to bring in more trade income for themselves or maybe France just wants a stronger buffer state to their north.

Regarding anything not an empire tag becoming a subject formable, I did have an idea initially where you could only have subject formables if the overlord was at least the size above, so to form a duchy, one must be a kingdom, and to form a kingdom, one must be a empire, but I quickly ditched that idea since certain tags are labelled as kingdoms but can be as strong as an empire tag, examples include France, Italy, Spain and Great Britain, these are large territories that, when formed, elevate the tag to kingdom status, but has the potential to form an empire of their own. That's why I excluded them, for the way I see it, these tags are meant to be very powerful and to become subjects, must lose many wars and eventually be subjugated through war.

 

[BlackWizardHD]

I disagree for Sardinia-Piedmont; what lead to the formation of the kingdom in the first place was the Savoia royal family annexing Sardinia to their mainland belongings, gradually being recognized as the "Kingdom of Sardinia and Piedmont", to the point Sardinia was returned to them even after Savoy and Piedmont were annexed to the French Empire, even as the rightful king of Sardinia resided once again on the island.

There are cases to be made for Tuscany as well. The original Grand Duchy of Tuscany was declared by Cosimo de' Medici after buying the island of Elba from the Republic of Genoa (not represented in-game because Elba is attached to the province of Pisa) and conquered Siena, as well as essentially declaring an IRL-Statute In Restraint of Appeals and Declaration of Indulgence Act. It'd make no sense for a vassal/march/junior partner to form Tuscany, as it is an expression of the power of the forming nation over the region.

Two Sicilies... yeah, sadly, they should be able to be formed by a subject, because the kingdom was effectively formed by reuniting the crowns of Sicily and Naples under Charles III, who held thirty different titles at once (slight overexageration for comedic effect). Even after the Congress of Vienna, they were strictly tied to the Bourbon royal family of France.

 

[Mr.Grizzly]

I disagree for Sardinia-Piedmont; what lead to the formation of the kingdom in the first place was the Savoia royal family annexing Sardinia to their mainland belongings, gradually being recognized as the "Kingdom of Sardinia and Piedmont", to the point Sardinia was returned to them even after Savoy and Piedmont were annexed to the French Empire, even as the rightful king of Sardinia resided once again on the island.

I'm aware about Sardinia-Piedmont's importance to the foundation of the Kingdom of Italy, but I decided that I think the pros of them being formable outweigh the cons, however I respect and understand where you are coming from, I'm just looking at it from the point of view of "I have an Italian subject who owns Sardinia and Piedmont, may as well let them form Sardinia-Piedmont".

There are cases to be made for Tuscany as well. The original Grand Duchy of Tuscany was declared by Cosimo de' Medici after buying the island of Elba from the Republic of Genoa (not represented in-game because Elba is attached to the province of Pisa) and conquered Siena, as well as essentially declaring an IRL-Statute In Restraint of Appeals and Declaration of Indulgence Act. It'd make no sense for a vassal/march/junior partner to form Tuscany, as it is an expression of the power of the forming nation over the region.

Tuscany is same thing here, however I think the case of them being a regional formable is stronger then the last one, an overlord isn't going to want a tiny little city-state to rule across central and maybe even northern Italy, they would elevate them. Try not to think too much of what happened historically, remember that Lucca, for example, could rise out of nowhere as someone's, perhaps France or Austria's, vassal and take over the region.

Two Sicilies... yeah, sadly, they should be able to be formed by a subject, because the kingdom was effectively formed by reuniting the crowns of Sicily and Naples under Charles III, who held thirty different titles at once (slight overexageration for comedic effect). Even after the Congress of Vienna, they were strictly tied to the Bourbon royal family of France.

Ah, I was unaware of that, but yeah that does seem to increase the case of being a subject formable, perhaps a Spain or Austria that has a subject in the area and forms Two Sicilies.