Remove 'Galactic Wonders' as perk.

[bobucles]

I find that there are more than enough megastructures scattered around the galaxy to keep my empire busy for a long time. The perk is nice from a RP standpoint but by the time I'm done fixing the ruins there's only time to build 1 or 2 more before the crisis.

Megastructure ascension only really pays off if you play WAY beyond a typical game's time frame.

 

[Slynx]

With "beeing available earlier" I also ment some cost rebalancing. Having the tech but not beeing able to actually construct them is more of a bad teaser otherwise

i'm not sure it's needed. if you want megastructures you may rush them.
habitats are easy to build when you get the tech. it's the only thing holding you cuz 3k alloys is a small price (1 corvette fleet cost roughly the same)
same with galactic wonders. you can get them around 2270-90 (maybe faster, but that was my usual date for building science nexus). and since you have to build them 1 by 1. and it takes a lot of time resources are usually also not an issue.
I only took Master builder if I had lots of habitats to upgrade, or during my "nexus rush" games(where I tried to build it as fast as possible. then MB is a great way to get a tech fast)

as for the empires who can't afford them - don't select the perk then megastructures gives a huge benefits. so reducing the price will require reducing them. not sure i''ll like it

 

[Derp]

"voting with your wallet" is like regular voting in that it doesn't mean anything unless you can convince a majority to vote the same way

 

[bobucles]

"voting with your wallet" is like regular voting in that it doesn't mean anything unless you can convince a majority to vote the same way

That means your wallet isn't big enough. Sorry kid.

If galactic wonders was removed as a perk there would still be plenty of wonders lying around the galaxy. If anything it'd make those wonders even more special and unique. It'd be interesting if there were a small number of fixed wonders, but they were SO massive that they couldn't even be managed by a single empire. Instead their benefits would be more usable across multiple allies.

 

[Flyinghotpocket]

One more argument for Megastructures beeing available too late in the game at the moment. No?

I feel like habitats should be much more avail much sooner than mega structs, and mega structs should have actual good bonuses. These game feels to easy, no real penalties. Everything you pick at the start can be bread out. Megastructures should have feel like they offset a huge disadvantage you've had to endure with from the start of the game. They dont. They are just a pretty structure.

The sphere hasnt ever been worth its investment. all you get is 400 energy and no livable surface for pops??????? please, i could just go to war and subjugate an empire and make them give me the energy and pops in a fraction of the time with the same investment.
The only megastructure that was always worth it was the science nexus but now a full grown planet is better and cheaper to make.
Not to mention the other ones that are just worthless, and masterbuilders not giving any bonus to megastrucs only habitats.

 

[Derp]

That means your wallet isn't big enough. Sorry kid.

lmao yeah okay jeff bezos

 

[Acheron]

I haven't build yet habitats, only conquered some one. They seemed to have relatively few districts which made me wonder if they were worth it, particularly as there are already so many planets demanding my attention, what are habitats good for?

Regarding the Galactic Wonders perk, what about it removing instead the "only one megastructure (other than gateways) may be build at a time"?

 

[Slynx]

. They seemed to have relatively few districts which made me wonder if they were worth it, particularly as there are already so many planets demanding my attention, what are habitats good for?

they have low district - so they consume less Empire Sprawl.
but their districts are buffed. (and you can use unemployed, slaves or purged pops to unlock all building slots, though some of the buildings are locked for habitats)
science focused habitat can produce around 200 or rach science (at least I usually see these numbers) (and also can produce rare resources or food cuz of free building slots)
trade focused habitat can produce 100-200+ trade (especially if you'll fill it with clerks through resource silos)
not sure I've built any other types of habitats though. cuz even if you can build a foundry there...ecumenopolis is usually better for this role

 

[Knuffeldraak]

Oof, it has been a bit before I was on this forums. Lots of good points here being brought up recently, but there's something that stands out at the moment.

I see a lot of comments saying "I win the game before megastructures." I'd just want to bring in my two cents here that this is not a valid agrument to say whether Megastructures should be guaranteed-content or locked behind a perk. Megastructures is a lategame feature. All the power to you if you finish the game before the megastructures point, but IMO a "I don't use it" isn't a constructive/valiable answer to a "Yes/No" question.

 

[Knuffeldraak]

Galactic Wonders is a very overloaded perk, but I'm not convinced it's strictly 'must have'. It's a no-brainer for people who want to keep building up endlessly and play very long games, because at some stage you have nothing else to do; but if you plan to win before the endgame crisis hits, it's just not that important. In practice I'd say the Arcology Project is harder to turn down for those who can get it, because it comes online earlier in the game, and it's very hard for an empire that doesn't have Ecumenopolises to get close to the alloy output of an empire that does have them. And of course, if you're not a genocidal empire but do want to wrap up the game quickly through conquest, the Colossus Project is close to must-have, just for the CB.

Well yeah I can't disagree with arcology project being a strong perk. However, arcology project (unlike mega-engineering) is a CHOICE perk, because there are three other features that contest the Planet Type spot. The World Shaper perk, as well as Machine Worlds/Hive Worlds, and the Forge World mechanic, are all features that contest the Arcology project. Megastructures doesn't have this kind of option. It can be used at any time, at any point, and doesn't take the place of something else in the game other than just a perk slot.

 

[Archael90]

All wonders should be split between... everything... some should be tied to techs, some to other ascension perks, and some should be unlocked just by tradition trees. Galactic wonders perk should gives 10% discount to prize of all wonders, or allow player to build multiple wonders at the same tome (multiple i mean 2, or max 3).

 

[Knuffeldraak]

All wonders should be split between... everything... some should be tied to techs, some to other ascension perks, and some should be unlocked just by tradition trees. Galactic wonders perk should gives 10% discount to prize of all wonders, or allow player to build multiple wonders at the same tome (multiple i mean 2, or max 3).

While I don't think "All" should, some would definetly make sense to be locked behind some other requirements. There are some core megastructures (like Ring World, Dyson Sphere) that you don't want to be locked behind requirements (or at least, too hard requirements) for practical reasons.

 

[KingAlamar]

From my limited POV megastructures [MS] are almost "core gameplay elements" to me. So I'd prefer:

• Gate the building of MS behind Mega Engineering [ME]
• Change the Master Builder's perk so that it impacts "anything you build' [not just MS]. Change its pre-reqs to "must take X APs prior" or similar. Additionally allow Master Builder to give you the Mega Engineering research option AFTER you have all the Mega Engineering pre-reqs
• IF someone feels the overwhelming need to further tie down MS then maybe you gate them behind techs like "Space Habitation" or "Solar Engineering" or whatever.
• While we're at it treat the Colossus Project as if it were another mega structure. It seems artificial that it is gated behind it's own AP. YMMV.

In a future economic / diplomatic update I'd even like to see the ability to pay other empires to construct MEs for you.

If we go with the above we still get the core set of mega structures BUT if a future update doesn't allow everyone to take "every tradition" or limits the number of APs to lets say 3 or 4 then MS isn't unduly impacted by those changes.

 

[evilcat]

I do not mind Galactic Wonder perk, you can argue that some other perks are also unimportant.
Force Projection is equal to one habitat with forts and so on.
However... there is big problem of reliability of Mega Engineering dropping. One thing is getting all the requirments.
There need to be some cheat to get mega engineering. Like buying from curators/caravans 5% of the tech or something.

 

[KingAlamar]

I do not mind Galactic Wonder perk, you can argue that some other perks are also unimportant.
Force Projection is equal to one habitat with forts and so on.
However... there is big problem of reliability of Mega Engineering dropping. One thing is getting all the requirments.
There need to be some cheat to get mega engineering. Like buying from curators/caravans 5% of the tech or something.

I could get behind something like this. You could either have an AP give you the ability to research Mega Engineering [ME] once you have the pre-reqs for it OR you could buy the right to research [with an associated steep price].

I'm sure that we'd need to be careful to avoid bee-lining-issues but I wouldn't necessarily mind going to more of a "tech tree" style approach and move away from the random tech-card-system.

 

[evilcat]

I could get behind something like this. You could either have an AP give you the ability to research Mega Engineering [ME] once you have the pre-reqs for it OR you could buy the right to research [with an associated steep price].

I'm sure that we'd need to be careful to avoid bee-lining-issues but I wouldn't necessarily mind going to more of a "tech tree" style approach and move away from the random tech-card-system.

Not sure what is definition of beeling, MegaStructures require like 3 late game techs, so it is hard to rush it.
If you want to get it really fast, you may pick Habitats as 1st, ascensions 1, Master Builder (start researching mega engineering) With Technocracy it is not even very taxing.

Nevertheless it is a bit boring that if i want to have any megastructure or even repair megastructure i need to pick always 2 other perks. ALWAYS.

 

[Knuffeldraak]

I do not mind Galactic Wonder perk, you can argue that some other perks are also unimportant.
Force Projection is equal to one habitat with forts and so on.
However... there is big problem of reliability of Mega Engineering dropping. One thing is getting all the requirments.
There need to be some cheat to get mega engineering. Like buying from curators/caravans 5% of the tech or something.

The problem isn't whether the Megastructures perk is important or not. The problem is that for a lategame, Megastructures is always a must-go, and thus not fitting for what's meant to be an optional manner of play.

Look at a different game; Call of Duty Zombies mode. Megastructures is the equivalent of a perk they have had in four consequent games, called "Jugger-Nog". The perk is just too crucial to have, that everyone ALWAYS takes it. They suddenly removed it in the fifth game installment. Why? Because the word "always" is not appropriate to have in what's meant to be an optional and variating line of gameplay.

 

[Slynx]

The problem isn't whether the Megastructures perk is important or not. The problem is that for a lategame, Megastructures is always a must-go, and thus not fitting for what's meant to be an optional manner of play.

I can't agree to this statement.
when I play I don't usually build ringworlds(don't like them) and only build lots of habitats if i'm forcing myself to be peaceful. for me the true endgame perk is Colossus. cuz it opens total war.
and out of other megastructures most of them can be substituted with something else: mega-art - useless. mega-coordination centre - useless. mega-sensor - useless. science nexus = 1-2 science habitats. dyson sphere = trade ecumenopolis. only matter decompressor is hard to substitute, but you need a black hole (though you can try to build lots of forge worlds if you're able)

I think the problem is not that it's must have or not. but that there is usually no better things to pick. cuz most of the ascension perks are...mediocre

 

[Secret Master]

The problem is that for a lategame, Megastructures is always a must-go, and thus not fitting for what's meant to be an optional manner of play.

Or you could just conquer the galaxy before you have time to build a mega-structure.

Some of them take so long to pay off or get real value from them that I question their use in many situations.

I will reiterate what I said earlier in the thread: With ringworlds spawning on FEs, ecumenpolis spawning in FEs, and random broken megastructures, why bother taking the perk in many situations? 55,000 alloys (and the time) needed to build a ringworld could have bought a fleet that could have helped conquered one for you, saving you the time, perk, and resources of building one from scratch.

 

[Knuffeldraak]

I can't agree to this statement.
when I play I don't usually build ringworlds(don't like them) and only build lots of habitats if i'm forcing myself to be peaceful. for me the true endgame perk is Colossus. cuz it opens total war.
and out of other megastructures most of them can be substituted with something else: mega-art - useless. mega-coordination centre - useless. mega-sensor - useless. science nexus = 1-2 science habitats. dyson sphere = trade ecumenopolis. only matter decompressor is hard to substitute, but you need a black hole (though you can try to build lots of forge worlds if you're able)

The Art-gallery is doubtful whether it's a good megastructure or not. However, the Coordination Center is very powerful because it not only makes your fleet bigger, but also makes your starbases a LOT stronger. Dyson sphere gives also a lot more energy than what trade even would give you, and it does so without the cost of other resources (I.E., you could convert that right away into more alloys/month. (Also, don't forget that the Dyson Sphere/Matter Disintegrator actually DOES work with edicts, unlike trade would), so most consistently a dyson sphere would give 1250/month.

The science nexus used to be great though. It's fallen behind a lot IMO, but that's because a lot of people abused this, as Tall empires became the meta. Pre-2.2, it was a common strategy to rush your way to a science nexus and complete it, then make your second.

Undeniably the mega-structures used to be godlike in lategame. In 2.2, it became a lot less appealing with the new Alloys system, as well as some being nerfed. Though, as again, they are still a core pick for anyone that's wanting to invest into the late-game.

Or you could just conquer the galaxy before you have time to build a mega-structure.

Read below, please.

I see a lot of comments saying "I win the game before megastructures." I'd just want to bring in my two cents here that this is not a valid agrument to say whether Megastructures should be guaranteed-content or locked behind a perk. Megastructures is a lategame feature. All the power to you if you finish the game before the megastructures point, but IMO a "I don't use it" isn't a constructive/valiable answer to a "Yes/No" question.